EFP Scenario

[Mark Thorpe]

Hi all,
OK so I didn't want to hijack another thread so started this one. Basically what I was looking at with the other thread was to get some feedback on the possibilities of using RED for EFP work. I am still getting my head around the whole RED concept so if I make mistakes it's just that I am not fully aware of the current situation on certain topics, i.e is 1080P now dropped and confirmed?

The basic scenario is that I would like to think that I could use RED for my future field work. The final delivery format is for regular TV in the U.S and maybe future DVD release, hence the reason for thinking that I could shoot in 1080P and then keep that as a master. If that shooting format has now been dropped then thats a moot point.

Having taken a look into the whole CF card issue I am not sure thats the way to go for EFP, in my situation. I'm looking at being in the field for up to a month at a time which will mean taking a lot of cards for the daily filming so as not be continually interrupted due to the necessity of downloading cards and reformatting etc.

The other issue I wanted to think about is the fact that I'm going to be spending time in dusty places in Africa, Botswana for one and possibly the Namibian Desert regions for a second. I am obviously very concerned as to what extended periods in such an environment may have on the well being of the Mysterium sensor when it comes to swapping out lenses etc!

I hope this thread clears up a bit what it is that I'm trying to accomplish.

How would you guys approach such a scenario?
Equipment considerations require that I be as light as possible.
Glass selection is now going to be different than that required for 1080P?

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Schrengohst]

I think the whole concept is coming down to: shoot 4k redcode,
then encode using REDCINE to your desired codec. That way
you always have the largest "neg" and make "release prints"
as needed. So while some are talking about editing 4K, I feel the
majority of RED material will be edited in HD and then encoded
as DVD or downrezzed to SD for release. I would think a MacBook Pro
or some type of PC laptop would be necessary for field work.
I will let some one else answer your questions about lenses.
But I would think, the less lens swapping the better in dusty, sandy environments.

[Cam McGrath]

I have just returned this week from 6 weeks in the Australian desert...shot P2, carried a 2TB Raid drive, Macbook Pro...1800km of rough, corrogated 4WD track, sand dunes, red dirt, no worries. Powered all on Honda Eu10i genny. Dumped from cards every 2 - 3 days. Slept on the ground. Only one big issue on the whole trip, no beer!

Oh yeah, your gear is gonna get dusty at some point! You just have to be on top of cleaning it before it gets too dirty. As for changing lenses, be careful but quick and were possible do it in a vehicle. Driving on dirt roads you should also have the air on 'fresh' not 'recirculate' and crank the fan up high. This helps to maintain positive pressure inside (windows all up too!) the vehicle and prevent dust coming in gaps in seals etc...i carried a cylinder of "Instrument Grade Medical air" too with a regulator, hose & nozzle for cleaning kit.

cheers
cam

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Mark,

I'm basically going to start off with what I typed in that other thread where this came up. But now I know for sure that you're thinking of traveling as light as possible.

But when I think of a field assignment for up to a month... Delivery on 480p or 720p, I would think of traveling light when it comes to some of the gear and especially media/storage. Seriously consider shooting in 2K with s16 lenses or a B4 setup. A 320GB RED DRIVE could potentially store up to 12 hours of REDCODE vs. only about 3 hours of REDCODE 4K. Data rate requirements for 2K are a lot lower than 4K. On the order of 7MB/s for 2K vs. 27~30MB/s for 4K. It may also make a lot of sense to have a couple shoeboxes full of pretty fast CF cards to do most shooting with. They're a lot more robust than a hard drive. And shooting 2K won't require the super expensive ~$200 ones. The SanDisk Ultra III or Lexar Gold ones for $75 each may do just fine for a 2K workflow.

The CF cards may not work for you right now with 8GB (and 16GB sometime fairly soon). But perhaps this will make a lot more sense when 32GB or even 64GB cards come available and if they're affordable.

In most situations, I agree with Red Guy -- shoot 4K for your master. But we're coming back to a few issues in this scenario where that may not make as much sense. 4K takes roughly 4X the storage space compared to shooting in 2K. That's 4X more media you have to lug around, 4X more data to offload and back-up in the field, etc.. Additionally, shooting 4X will force you to carry 35mm glass with you, this can be a concern depending on just how light you need to pack.

Shooting RED DRIVEs is the most economical and allows for the longest uninterrupted record times. But They're hard drives, with lots of moving parts, sensitive to vibration, shock and dirt. More sensitive to other factors like extreme temperatures than a CF card would be.

Workflow considerations... You'll definitely need a good notebook system and portable backup media (redundant hard drives, etc..). Budget is going to play a big role here. Ideally, shooting to RED DRIVE and then backing up to external hard drives (preferably RAID-1 configs) would be nice. If the budget allows for providing enough RED DRIVES, then I would say shoot to those, back-up to external storage and keep the RED DRIVE as a master.

Even though you will be delivering for broadcast, 2K is probably the way to shoot. Besides, it looks like 1080p and lower modes may end up being dropped from the camera, leaving 2K and 4K RAW as the only on-board formats. Initially, 2K and 4K will be the only modes there, regardless of future possibilities.

[Mark Thorpe]

filmnorth - An Aussie with no beer is liken to a Bear without woods!! How's you get through that one mate? Great feedback by the way. Sounds like you had a good time there. I've got my eye on everything with regards to cleaning, sun & moisture exposure / protection etc.

Jeff - Thanks as always for your enlightened feedback. I guess it will be a deciding factor as and when my delivery time comes and to which CF capacity is around for my final decision on storage options. I'm hoping upwards of 8GB. That will make things a bit easier.

For the Glass issue that makes more economical sense all round to look at shooting initial projects in 2K using s16 lenses. It would be a perfect World if I could go straight out there and shoot / archive in 4K but that would stretch me too far unfortunately. If future budgets increase, unlikely, then there could always be the option to shoot 4K at that time.

A lot of the shots, I can only envisage at this time, will be long shots as that gives better potential for more natural behaviors from wildlife. Maybe I won't need to change out the glass as much as I initially thought. At least I hope not.

I'm going to be getting a new MacBook Pro when I get back to Europe in October.

Thanks again everyone else who offered info too. I'm still looking into things so feel free to post if you think of anything else. I'll re-post with any updates.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Those are great points. If you use 35MM lenses on the RED what happens
when you shoot 2K? Does the image crop?

[Hans von Sonntag]

filmnorth -
A lot of the shots, I can only envisage at this time, will be long shots as that gives better potential for more natural behaviors from wildlife. Maybe I won't need to change out the glass as much as I initially thought. At least I hope not.

Mark.

Hi Mark,

2K windowed using 35mm lenses will work like a 2x extender. Good for wildlife shooting.

Hans

[Michael Hastings]

Mark,

Additionally, shooting 4X will force you to carry 35mm glass with you, this can be a concern depending on just how light you need to pack.

With the availability of the Birger mount I can't see why you would shoot with 16mm glass unless you already owned the latest/greatest 16mm lenses.

This is pretty much the standard kit for a pro photographer using Canon:

EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM Price: $1,449.95
EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM Price: $1,139.00 about 950-1000 on ebay
EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM Price: $1,699.

and weighs 7.7 lbs. for all three.

These are phenomenal quality lenses even on full frame and shoot the sweet spot in 4K, and even more of the sweet spot in 2K. Plus you get the Image stabilization on the 70-200. The 16-35 was already excellent but was recently redesigned for the new 22 megapixel camera, so the older used ones should be cheaper and still would be fine on 4k and pretty much indistinguishable from the new one on 2k since most of the improvements are on the edges. The other two will probably be updated fairly soon now that the 22mp has been announced.

Mark,

Data rate requirements for 2K are a lot lower than 4K. On the order of 7MB/s for 2K vs. 27~30MB/s for 4K. It may also make a lot of sense to have a couple shoeboxes full of pretty fast CF cards to do most shooting with. They're a lot more robust than a hard drive. And shooting 2K won't require the super expensive ~$200 ones. The SanDisk Ultra III or Lexar Gold ones for $75 each may do just fine for a 2K workflow.[/I]

Additionally, shooting 4X will force you to carry 35mm glass with you, this can be a concern depending on just how light you need to pack.

This is probably the biggest argument for 2K

[Mark Thorpe]

Very valid and well received points,
My main issue with the type of filming I may be doing is that recording times to CF will be very limited, at current card capacities, before needing to swap out. Sometimes I just have to keep rolling to tell a story, as is always best to do with Natural History. Cut it all up later. The RED Drive 320GB seems the best deal for me. I've seen the threads regarding durability but there are arguments both ways on that.

Glass is the big concern at this point. I'm not gonna go out and buy 35mm glass, just not possible at this time. The new full frame Nikon 14-24mm f2.8, and others released to compliment the full frame 3D, don't have manual aperture control on the lens, a potential problem for underwater housing features (?) So I may just go with Birger mounted Canon glass as mentioned but still to be decided.

Thanks all, great feedback.
Mark.

[S. Um]

For EFP, I cannot see shooting 4k to CF cards. Maybe if you shoot 2k at 24p, but even then you don't get that much time. I think the Red Drive is a necessity, but you also need CF for backup. I've used the Firestore FS4 and FS100 for several years now, and they work great except in high vibration situations. That's where you'll need the solid state recording.

As for lenses, if you already own Nikons, you probably don't need to switch to Canon. I believe the Birgir mounts will control the aperture on G type Nikon lenses (the same way it does on Canon lenses without aperture rings).

BTW, it seems strange that you're an underwater guy and you're spending a lot of time in Africa, especially in the interior part.