S35mm 4k Redcode Raw

[Johan Lindgren]

S35MM 4K REDCODE RAW
Red.com format options
I haven´t seen that one before.

I tried to search the forum but did not find anything about it here.


Johlan

[Rob Lohman]

I'm not sure I'm following... that's been there since IBC '06. It is what people are shooting now (albeit in a 2:1 aspect ratio instead of 16:9, but that's just temporary).

[Johan Lindgren]

Thankyou for your time Rob. I´ve seem to lack vital information here would you help me understand?


Standard 35mm is 4k and super35 is 4.5k as it is indicating that a larger part of the sensor is used.
I thougt people were shooting 2:1 4K standard 35mm sensor crop.

Is it downscaling 4.5k to 4K
or is the super 35 yet to be enabled.

Thank you

Johlan

[Brook Willard]

What RED used to call "35mm" is actually just about the same size as Arri S35mm. What RED called "S35mm" was actually larger than Arri S35mm. It's just a semantic change.

[Johan Lindgren]

Arri has groundglass specified by ANSI and DIN standards and none that says "ARRI size"
There are two different collums one named S35mm and the other 35mm. There used to be specified measures attached to the headers of the collumns, those are now gone and that made me a little confused.
What are the specifications in pixels and mm of each format.

Johlan

[Emmanuel Cambier]

I think I heard someone at Red saying that it's only meaning that you can use S35 lenses in those formats.

[David Mullen ASC]

The RED sensor is 24.4 x 13.7mm, which is essentially the width of Super-35.

But I wouldn't get too literal since the RED doesn't shoot a piece of film that is printed and projected. You use as much of the sensor area as you want to by cropping in post and you can output it to whatever 35mm format you want to.

Currently though, the RED camera only sends out a 2:1 image for recording; the full 1.78 (16x9) area of the sensor is not enabled yet for recording, meaning you can't (yet) use the full height of the sensor area.

Yes, if you want to use the full sensor without vignetting, make sure your lenses cover a Super-35 area. Most cine lenses built for regular 35mm will cover a Super-35 area, but not all.

http://www.red.com/cameras/tech_specs

[Johan Lindgren]

Thanks both of you for your time and effort in trying to explain this to me.

I´m asking this since the issue for me, is that I on most occations will have no other options than to use some SLR type lens setup.

RED uncompressed RAW is S35 4520 (h) x 2540 (v) as it uses the whole ACTIVE part of the sensor.

REDCODE RAW S35 is 4K
REDCODE RAW N35 is 4K
stated by the format opions page on RED.COM website
one format indicates a larger physical usage of the sensor than the other.
The resolution is the same in both instaces.
altough my concern about this issue might seem to be about image width. It really is the usable height Im intrested in, that and wide angle issues with SLR lenses.

Johlan

[Damien Molineaux]

I think I heard someone at Red saying that it's only meaning that you can use S35 lenses in those formats.

Yes, I wondered about that, that's how I understand it also, although I think it's confusing and I wouldn't put it like that myself. But it seems to me the top of the format chart indicates what lenses you can use, and to which format you can record to. Another example is the B4 column. We now know that to use B4 lenses you must use a Abakus style adapter which magnifies the image to a S16 size portion of the sensor (which is 2K).

The RED sensor is 24.4 x 13.7mm, which is essentially the width of Super-35.

But I wouldn't get too literal since the RED doesn't shoot a piece of film that is printed and projected. You use as much of the sensor area as you want to by cropping in post and you can output it to whatever 35mm format you want to.

Currently though, the RED camera only sends out a 2:1 image for recording; the full 1.78 (16x9) area of the sensor is not enabled yet for recording, meaning you can't (yet) use the full height of the sensor area.

Yes, if you want to use the full sensor without vignetting, make sure your lenses cover a Super-35 area. Most cine lenses built for regular 35mm will cover a Super-35 area, but not all.

http://www.red.com/cameras/tech_specs

Actually it has been mentioned some users have beta versions of the firmware which allows for 16x9 recording, but Redalert doesn't yet allow for the use of those files...

As to using the full size of the sensor, for the time being it seems the only option will be with the yet to be released Raw Port. What would be nice however, and I'm sure when Red have a little time they will look into it, would be to allow for the use of the full width at a smaller height, a 1:2.35/2.4 aspect for example, using the full 4.5K width of the sensor.

The sensor being 4520 px wide, at 2.35 that would make an image height of 1924 (rounded off) which gives us an image of 8'696'480 px. While a 4K (4096 px) image with a 16:9 ratio gives us an image size of 9'437184 px. Therefore a 4.5K image with a 1:2.35 aspect is a smaller file size than the currently proposed 4K.

So Red, not to pressure you, I'm sure you've got your hands full. Take your time and continue doing things right, as you have been doing, (just make sure you deliver my camera as planned, nov. 30th ;-) ), but when possible please offer us customizable recording formats including the ability to use the full width (or height maybe, for anamorphic ?) of the sensor. And yes I'm aware you've already got three options : 4K 2:1, 4K 16:9 and 2K 16:9

I'm cheering you on every day,
Damien

[David Mullen ASC]

I'm still not sure what you're worried about. SLR lenses are designed to cover an 8-perf 35mm still camera frame, which is much bigger than the Super-35 or standard 35mm cine frame.

Super-35 is only the width of a soundtrack stripe wider than standard 35mm, 2mm -- a Super-35 negative frame is 24mm wide, versus the 22mm width of a standard 35mm negative.

And since the RED sensor is 16x9, it is smaller vertically than a 4-perf 35mm frame, which is 4x3. So any 35mm lens will cover vertically. The RED sensor is 13.7mm tall, versus the 18.67mm height of Super-35 (4-perf Full Aperture).

The 8-perf 35mm movie frame (similar to a 35mm still camera frame) is 37.72mm x 24.92mm. Any lens that covers that will cover both Super-35 and standard 35mm cine.

Thanks both of you for your time and effort in trying to explain this to me.

I´m asking this since the issue for me, is that I on most occations will have no other options than to use some SLR type lens setup.

RED uncompressed RAW is S35 4520 (h) x 2540 (v) as it uses the whole ACTIVE part of the sensor.

REDCODE RAW S35 is 4K
REDCODE RAW N35 is 4K
stated by the format opions page on RED.COM website
one format indicates a larger physical usage of the sensor than the other.
The resolution is the same in both instaces.
altough my concern about this issue might seem to be about image width. It really is the usable height Im intrested in, that and wide angle issues with SLR lenses.

Johlan