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11-02-2007, 01:55 AM
Hi all red users,
I am a Makeup artist/Hairdresser and about to start shooting a feature film on red. I would like to gain further knowledge on any things to watch out for in regrads to makeup.Colours,highlights,I would be ever so grateful for any feedback.Especially how red effects all this and of the positives.
Kota
11-02-2007, 02:41 AM
It's closest relative would be the ultra-expensive high-end digital cinema cameras - eg Genesis, D20, Dalsa, Viper. It is competitive (and possibly / probably even beats some of them) in terms of sharpness, latitude, noise etc. It has the depth of field of a 35mm film camera. Because it records in a raw format, the image can be tweaked, re-white-balanced, etc in post easily. Color saturation etc can be adjusted very easily afterwards without too much posterization. If you have time, try to do some tests and work with the people on set to get them to show you the approximate look they're going for. The Red's image is flexible so you need to get an idea of what ballpark they're shooting for with the grade. What you see on some monitors on set may very well be way off from final saturation, warmth, color, contrast, etc (unlike, say lower-end HD cameras, where the look is tweaked closer to final while shooting because they have less latitude for extreme adjustments in post).
The sensitivity of its sensor is ASA320, although it can be pushed significantly and still look good.
Officially it's rated at 11.5 stops of latitude although depending on how much grain in the shadows the DP is prepared to put up with it might be more like 9.5 stops.
Probably the best thing for you to practice with would be a digital SLR still camera. The highlight response should be very similar to that. In my humble opinion, the Red is not as sharp and does not have quite the latitude of the current state of the art DSLRs, but if you do makeup work that looks good if you shoot it with a digital SLR camera (doesn't need to be an expensive one, an entry-level one should be fine), that should put you in the right ballpark. If you know Photoshop or a digital photo program such as Lightroom, Aperture, etc, that's great. Try shooting in a "RAW" and tweaking the colors afterwards to get an idea of how much can be done in post - and how much it can affect your makeup!
Of course I don't own a Red. I have only played with one or two, seen test footage, seen it projected and graded on a 2K Barco at RPM Post, etc. But hopefully this should help.
Anyone else have suggestions?
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
11-02-2007, 07:34 AM
Great synopsis Bruce!Originally Posted by Bruce Allen
Yeah, Kota just cover any wrinkles on the female talent, and accentuate the ones on the younger male talent. On the older males, just leave 'em as is. Post should take care of everything else.(Before taking this advice, consider that I have no experience in this but am only imagining what is/will be possible.):)
11-02-2007, 08:59 AM
Like with 35mm, it's also an issue of degree of enlargement -- is this for projection on a big screen (maybe even in 4K)? Or for release in home video? For TV broadcast? A make-up job that holds up on a 32" NTSC screen may not hold up on a 75' movie theater screen.
Digital does tend to make faces seem a little more plasticy sometimes, especially if you are using a "clippier" camera like a Sony HDCAM, maybe not the RED so much, requiring more powder on faces, etc. because they look shiney. Luckily with digital, it's something you can see clearly on the set when shooting if you have an HD monitor to watch on.
Redness has only been a problem for me when shooting on HD with a camera recording in REC 709, which has a somewhat boosted red chroma look, making red lips look too red, or fake blood look too cartoonish, etc. And faces in underexposed warm lighting can get too orangey. This is something to consider if the on-set HD monitor is showing you a Rec 709 image, even if what's getting recorded is RAW data. You can either consider it less of a problem because the red chroma will be tweaked to taste in post, even if it looks odd on the on-set monitor, or you can reduce the red with make-up in case the footage will be dumped to Rec 709 HD quickly for some reason without much color-correction.
11-02-2007, 01:03 PM
David, assuming you are not proficient in the make-up portion of movie-making, still with the attention you have to pay to detail it would only follow that you are observant about the variance.
My question is, can a movie shot with RED simply have all the actors apply some sort of natural see-through make-up that will allow the actors' natural skin tones come through, if that's what is wanted? Then cc in post allows each actor to appear natural yet individually nuanced.
I know you sort of touched on this in your post, but maybe not specifically to what I'm aiming for.
11-02-2007, 01:59 PM
based on what i've seen so far ... i would say use your techniques that you use with FILM vs. HD ...
i would contact of the DP and ask if you could come out to do a make up test when he/she does some RED test before production begins ...
11-02-2007, 02:19 PM
There are too many types of movies made, and too many skin types as well, to generalize too much. I just read an article about "Paper Moon", shot in b&w in the 1970's, which said that the actors wore no make-up in that movie. There have been other examples in film history.
But obviously there are some actors which need make-up because of a distracting complexion problems (or to hide tatoos), or simply for day-to-day continuity, like if one day they have some pimples, etc. Or for story reasons, they need special make-up.
Sure, with digital post, regardless of whether you shot with the RED or a film camera, etc., you could fix things later; it's just a time & money issue as to whether to save some problems for later or not. I did a movie where the lead actor wore a hairpiece and the join in the front was often too visible, to the point where the make-up person sometimes was in tears, she was so worried it would show-up in the final movie. I had to assure her that in the final D.I. I would fix it if it were visible, and we did -- but it wasn't necessarily a cheap fix. A better toupee may have been cheaper in the long run...
You have to figure that the RED image is very sharp with a lot of fine detail, so make-up has to be applied carefully, and probably not with a heavy-hand. But the DP will also have to help-out with lighting, maybe camera filtration, maybe post touch-ups. As long as everyone is aware of the problems up front, rather than feeling later that the make-up person didn't do a good job because of the post work needed. Everyone should be on the same wavelength from the beginning about what to do.
11-02-2007, 03:16 PM
Indeed David,
"Fix in post" can only take you so far, and whenever you apply a grade to fix one actor's face, the rest of the scene is equally affected, unless of course you use masks and other tricks around the actor's face, which adds substantially to the time and expense of the DI and does NOT always guarantee the desired result. Have you ever seen photos of celebrities in magazines or seen them in person? There's the "wow, I don't believe she looks like that" syndrome far too many times. Make up works, it adds to the effect of a particular scene and serves to keep continuity and enhance mood and perceived performances. Digital manipulation is not an all powerful, infallible panacea, so I would recommend achieving as many effects and looks as possible before getting to the DI. Good make up is one of the cheapest ways to do just that. I love digital and been shooting digital, both video and DSLR now for some years now, and no DI can emulate the warm, beautiful look of magic hour yet, so whenever we want the magic hour look, guess what, we shoot at that time, not at 12:00 noon and fix it in post.
For whatever is worth...
11-02-2007, 04:05 PM
Yeah... competitive with the Origin, Viper, etc? Not so much. Way better? Definitely. Those cameras are great in their own rights, but they're yesterday's technology. Now outdated, but not to say bad.
11-02-2007, 04:58 PM
On what information or experience are you basing the conclusion that the 16-bit 4K RAW image from the Dalsa Origin is inferior to that from the RED camera?
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