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  1. #11  
    For 4K I would prefer a PL Cine lens rather than the Nikon. Preferably something fast like the T2 Cooke 15-40 or T2.2 Angenieux 17-80. Or the Red zoom even though it is a stop slower. In any event I would much prefer a PL mount Cine lens. No adapters please! Optics quality is critical at 4K. That would be my vote, although I may well be in the minority.

    I know it will be a problem for Gates picking which lens to support. That is why the simplest thing may be to go with the RED Zoom (which is relatively affordable), and then we can get more exotic later. RED camera plus RED zoom plus Gates housing. Makes sense to me.
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member Mark Thorpe's Avatar
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    This is more like it guys:

    Housing Considerations (Gates appraisals seeing as that seems the chosen option at the moment):

    The main stumbling block is going to be the lens factor. I've chatted with John at Gates and they haven't even got the ball rolling on this yet as they want to get an idea of what the masses (only a handful of housings reserved at this point) are going for on the glass front. Personally I would prefer a lens that can cover many shooting scenarios something like the Cooke 18-100mm T3.0 or the 20-100mm Cooke T3.1 but really would prefer something with just a tad more speed. I also have the Fathoms SWP44 already so for certain shots to be able to access that incredible 117 degree FOV would be huge. For the SWP44 to work seeing as it was designed to be used with the Z1 with no additional filters we basically need to find a prime lens with a 67 degree FOV to match that of the Z1 @ its widest.

    I really feel that the Red Zoom at 300mm is going to be way too long a lens for Macro applications.

    For the lenses I can see the design following the strategy as I have always mentioned. That each lens will have an extension bracket specifically for that particular lens with the manual operating gears for focus, aperture and telephoto if that is required. Its the only way I can see the lenses working correctly when one has a multiple glass selection.

    For the HiRez LCD I would think it would be much cheaper in the long run to look at getting the RED made LCD and then request that Gates construct their housing so that the LCD can be viewed via a viewing window (a la Amphibico Phenom for the Z1 - www.amphibico.com) Lens hoods can be part of the housing accessories if needed.

    Any more thoughts?

    Mark.
    "A man is only as big as the dreams he dares to live"

    liquidmocean
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  3. #13  
    Hi Mark,

    The RED Zoom is 18-85mm F2.8 (probably about T3.0-T3.2?). The RED 300m prime is not useful for underwater, you are correct. The RED Zoom should be right around 68 degrees AOV at the wide end. I am okay with the Cooke 18-100 if that is the consensus, but I don't think it will be much better than the (much less expensive) RED Zoom.

    I already have the Gates EM419 monitor with our XL H1 housing. I too have the SWP44 port and would like to use it. I believe it should work fine with the RED Zoom, but we should check with Gates.

    I think the RED Zoom will do what you want Mark.
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  4. #14  
    Senior Member Mark Thorpe's Avatar
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    Hi Mike,
    I too have many of the Gates accessories, monitor, tripods, domes etc but will be selling the whole line to make way for RED. It would be nice to have a backup but HDV is just no comparison and no one is gonna see that as a viable back up unit anyway.

    I never reserved any of the RED Lens options for this very reason. I would prefer to find a lens with the long end around 100mm for macro. I heard that the BBC used the Tamron 90mm f2.8 on some of their cams (OK its autofocus so a gear would be required) for the Planet Earth series and they loved it.

    So still in a quandry for the lens at this point.

    Best,
    Mark.
    "A man is only as big as the dreams he dares to live"

    liquidmocean
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  5. #15 Friggin' lenses... 
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    Guys,

    Great input.

    I love the cooke zooms also, but face it, $45,000 for a lens! Plus they are 9-12 inches long and weigh as much as the red camera or more. For me the hassle of renting Cookes just won't work and certainly not for Gates customers.

    Now I agree - I can live with $10K for the Red 18-85 zoom but it is slated for "release late 2007." That means early 2008 for a housing, yikes! I need to be shooting this Summer if the camera release goes as scheduled... or pissing away money on 900 and housing rentals for HDCAM while RED #1438 sits dry - OUCH!

    Personally, when framing on the fly underwater with big critters I prefer a top mounted LCD to a rear of housing mount. It's kinda' awkward holding the housing out in front for framing.

    I'm curious to see the results of the Nikon 17-35mm zoom with red adapter given the price point and overall capabilities.

    The only problem I see with different front ends for the Gates housing is convincing John to do it, the additional o-ring, and finalizing lens selections.

    Looks like I'm gonna' have to modify my Eclair ACL housing to fit the RED camera if I want to shoot RED UW this year - glad I hung on to it.
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  6. #16  
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    BTW - Did I mention my ACL housing is RED - hehe...
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  7. #17  
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    Mark,

    you are the macro master
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  8. #18  
    Senior Member Mark Thorpe's Avatar
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    Hi Sharky,
    http://www.used-filmequipment.com/pr...p?show=11:6763

    Wasn't thinking of spending more than $10k total for glass. I'm not planning to buy anything Cine other than used and if priced right.

    The LCD on RED can be made to attach pretty much anywhere and in any position. The LCD is not located on the rear. I also prefer top mounted for framing on the fly. I imagine most of my stuff will be set to specific shot lists though and I'm not thinking about swimming along a reef in the hope of finding interesting stuff to film with RED.

    Regarding lens options for Gates I too believe that we will be seeing the housing revolving around a single lens but there will obviously be shooters with deeper pockets than others who will also opt for custom built lens brackets for specific glass, not that I am in that group unfortunately.

    As you may also be aware I am stepping up from HDV and am taking the time before getting my hands on RED #954 to learn as much as possible. That also means the fact that I have never worked on Cine lens theory whatsoever in the past. Slowly getting there so be patient if I make what seems to be any crazy opinions etc. I'm always of the mind that the lens needs to be as wide as possible and offer a good macro ability. With photography I have many friends who use a variety of 105mm lenses with diopters for the really small stuff. I am only imagining that this technique would be possible with certain long lenses with greater tele characteristics than 35mm? Can anyone expand on / correct that thinking.

    As much as I'd like to think I can 'touch" well on the macro scene there are some fantastic shooters out there who amaze me with their stuff. Bob Cranston, Howard Hall and Peter Scoones for example. The way I see it these true masters have to move over some day. I for one will be waiting in the wings, along with many others, in the hope of filling in the spaces.

    Cheers,
    Mark.
    "A man is only as big as the dreams he dares to live"

    liquidmocean
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  9. #19 underwater red configuration 4K... 
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    Here's a configuration I am looking at for an underwater red system that will fit in my ACL housing while waiting for the Gates system.

    I located the battery and drive underslung may change depending how I can squeeze it into the housing.

    Nikon 17-35mm with Century HD .8 converter. I haven't done the math on the dome (6"?) but thanks to Ralph Oshiro here's the 4K lens math:

    "...using the 1.62x lens cropping factor, if you're acquiring in 4K:"

    17mm x 1.62 = 27.54mm
    35mm x 1.62 = 56.70mm

    Or 22mm with .8 converter which is equivalent to the 14mm with cropping factor allowing full zoom thru capability?

    Obviously not to scale
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  10. #20 Full circle return to manual metering? 
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    I am going to try a color chart on my fin for reference in post for 4K Raw output.
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