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09-11-2011, 08:22 PM
I'm shooting a feature in OCT with my EPIC and would love some input on workflow..
What is the best and most efficient way to:
Transcode for edit
Then CC
then out for mastering.
I'm confused with from the transcode to the CC, lets say I transcode with the look I set in RED CINE X, but they want to change it after the edit is complete.. What happens then? Re-cc the transcoded files or re-transcode from raw and re edit?
Imsure there is some eSy answer for this?
Thanks!!
09-11-2011, 08:51 PM
wouldn't you want to go to something like Davinci's Resolve after the Red Cine stage?
Good question, I'm curious as well..
09-11-2011, 10:14 PM
Resolve is the best (cheapest) over all way to grade nicely from your R3D's from a EDl/XML from FCP.. then export directly to what ever...
simple. :))
09-11-2011, 11:56 PM
use adobe premiere.
09-12-2011, 02:21 AM
Hi Justin,Originally Posted by Justin Marx
There are many ways to skin this cat...
But a very useful way of approaching it is to use the "Caboose Effect". This is a term coined by none other than the maestro of DI and all things digital Michael Cioni of LightIron.
The concept is to work out your workflow by starting at the end of the chain - your deliverable!
I have added my comments in Red where appropriate.
"The CABOOSE EFFECT
1. How are you going to finish the film?
Base your process on how you are ultimately going to exhibit the film. This will reveal to you ways in which you should employ and/or avoid specific steps that may or may not be useful in distribution. For example, if you plan to distribute primarily on BluRay, there is no benefit to color correcting in P3 space for film exhibition.
2. How are you going to edit the film?
Most films are edited in Final Cut Pro and AVID Media Composer. I recommend working in either, but using DNxHD115 or ProRes HQ for your offline codec. If you can do this, you can easily work at full raster and a very high fidelity. But I do not recommend working with RED RAW files in offline, as that workflow can be cumbersome as the footage count goes up. If you are going to skip the offline process and work at online quality and grade off your transcodes use ProRess422, ProRes4444 or DNxHD175x.
3. How do you plan to color correct?
The nice thing about modern day DI is that everyone has access to it in some capacity. I prefer to work with data-centric systems for color mastering, but more importantly is a colorist. Do not color correct yourself. Even if you are working with the oldest coloring system around, it is probably better to take RED files to HDCAM tape and grade with an experienced colorist tape-to-tape than to use Apple Color and do it with an amateur. This really makes a HUGE difference-especially in an independent film. I cannot stress this enough. Talent in color trumps toolset any day of the week.
4. Test your gamma spaces
I recommend working with REDLogFILM for your gamma space to grade in. This may mean to process your dailies in REDLogFilm so you don’t have to do a reconform after you finish cutting. Otherwise, when you do reconform, use this gamma space since it is making RED footage look absolutely spectacular! A great combination is REDcolor2 and REDlogFILM this gives you maximum flexibility in the grade.
5. If you are doing on-set downloading, try to use 16GB CF cards
The pace of working with CF cards enables a downloader to keep up with the pace of production. This means there isn’t an hour of footage sitting on the camera at any one time waiting for downloading. Do it frequently in small chunks. This is the best rhythm for on-set processing. Obviously you will be using RED MAG SSDs with your Epic but Michael's point is still valid. If there is a DIT or DAM on-set, the producers don't want to see them sitting around most of the day and then start offloading at the end of the shoot. Obviously YMMV!
6. Shoot with 2 cameras
I find that productions that shoot with 2 cameras (especially indies) end up using the additional coverage to help solve performance issues. Giving an editor more choices is worth it-especially if you are running a tight budget. Sure the camera costs more, but the price of footage is so small with RED that a 2nd camera doesn’t increase the cost at the same rate as it does with tape and film. By doing your own dailies using a RED Rocket, you are easily improving the film by getting twice the dailies shot and more coverage."
http://michaelcioni.tumblr.com/post/...cial-network-i
As I said at the start, there are many ways to skin a cat. This is not conclusive and the "post world" and DI processes are constantly evolving but the solid concepts that Michael has shared still stand.
If you want to learn more, I highly recommend REDucation. They have a 2 day Epic course at the end of this month for $750 which is an absolute steal!
http://epicreducation.eventbrite.com/
Hope this helps.
All the best,
09-12-2011, 03:33 AM
Here is one Low Budget feature workflow using your question as a prompt...
What is the best and most efficient way to:
Transcode for edit
Using the RED Rocket and REDcine-X, transcode to ProRes422/ProRes4444/DNxHD175x with REDcolor2 and REDlogFILM.
Then Edit
Using Avid or FCP...
Then CC
In your editor or export an XML, AAF or EDL to your weapon of choice (grading system) and grade off your transcoded material.
Then out for mastering
Rountrip back to your editor and playout to tape (HDCAMSR) or export to Prores4444. To go to a film print, take the HDCAMSR tape or files to the the filmout company that you choose and they will do the transfer from tape to film.
I'm confused with from the transcode to the CC, lets say I transcode with the look I set in RED CINE X, but they want to change it after the edit is complete.. What happens then? Re-cc the transcoded files or re-transcode from raw and re edit?
If you transcode with a look that you set in REDcine-X then that is more suited to an offline online post workflow where you edit offline transcodes and then online and grade off the R3Ds or re-transcoded neutral look media (REDcolor2, REDlogFILM with default camera metadata) to give the colorist the most options.
In your question you ask for the "best" way which nobody can truly answer as every production has different demands, restrictions and timelines. So the "best" way for one production is not necessarily the best for another.
Anyway some food for thought. :)
All the best,
09-12-2011, 06:03 AM
Tom,
THANK YOU SO MUCH!! Your posts were exactly what I was looking for..
I think the REDucation sounds like a good idea as well!
One last question: how do you online and grade off of the R3D files?
Thank you so much again!!
09-12-2011, 08:58 AM
Hi Justin,
You're very welcome :)
With regard to the online and grading with R3Ds, that entirely depends on what system you use for the finishing process and whether or not it supports working with R3Ds natively.
Another factor is budget and timeline. You can go the fast and expensive route or you can go the slow but cheap route to finish your project - there is always a trade off!
Mark Toia's recommendation on using Resolve is well founded and a great option for working with R3Ds and roundtripping with FCP and Avid - but there are many other options but all depend on budget.
There are other more qualified people (Michael Cioni, Mike Most, Jake Blackstone, Bruce Allen, Marc Wielage) in this forum that can go into futher detail on the pros and cons of various finishing systems but I have to say that I would heed Michael Cioni's wisdom in "The Caboose Effect":
"...Do not color correct yourself... it is probably better to take RED files to HDCAM tape and grade with an experienced colorist tape-to-tape than to use Apple Color and do it with an amateur. This really makes a HUGE difference-especially in an independent film. I cannot stress this enough. Talent in color trumps toolset any day of the week."
Finally TEST, TEST and TEST.
Test every part of the workflow from on-set through to post. Create test footage, edits, roundtrips, outputs... Make sure everyone in the chain from DIT, Post Supervisor, Assistant Editor, Editor, Online Editor and/or Colorist are on the same page. Through testing various workflows and systems you will find the right one for your production.
I can't recommend REDucation enough, getting information from the RED coal face really does fill in a lot of gaps regarding RED in production and in post - it did for me :)
All the best,
09-12-2011, 11:41 AM
Hi Justin-
My advice to you is not to concentrate on doing an online. Take things in small strides, go slow, learn from each experience and move up from project to project.
Embarking on what you're doing is going to be enough of a learning curve on its own. For this job, Tom is right in suggesting just to transcode once to ProRes HQ or DNxHD175. Make that your negative. For some of my most successful über-indies, I encourage them not to do any color correction at all in dailies. Transfer REDColor2 / REDLogFilm and let that be the cutting material. With an independent, you can explain how the log-like-look is paying it forward to a cheaper, faster and better finish.
If you do this, you're literally working at a higher quality level than most people are able to achieve with the SONY F35...so it literally pays to work in 1080 or 2K REDLogFilm files and eliminate the reconform altogether.
Once you are done, simply export a self-containted textless ProRes444 or DNxHD175x file from your cut separated into 5 or 6 reels that are 15-20 minutes in length each. Then, depending on who you choose to work with, you can load that media in as a pre-conformed sequence and allow color to be done with a real professional. As I said before, I cannot stress enough how important it is to have a very experienced colorist in your corner and working with a true infrastructure. On our films, we use the same talent on big jobs as we do small jobs - they all present their own unique challenges and everyone can learn something new on every job. But what we don't do on every job is run everyone through the same cut-and-paste pipeline. So should be the case with your job.
Filmmaking is an unending series of compromises, but the trick is to be educated enough to know which ones have little to know consequence.
R3D + RED ROCKET + REDLogFilm + ProRes 444 = ideal backbone for an independent film
This formula, if followed correctly, represents unmatched simplicity when compared to all the other noise out there - RED or non RED. This formula makes a few tiny sacrifices while protecting the only thing that matters: what you ultimately put on the screen. Ensure that every call you make and every dollar you spend is headed to the final film. Many components of indies are one-way streets; or processes that end up getting you to a checkpoint, only to be re-done for the final piece later (like offline and online or temp vfx or temp conform for test screenings, etc.)
Workflow is one of my least favorite words. Mainly because the more money you have the less people depend on how the work flows. When money is more available, money can control the flow of work. But when money is less available, how well the work flows can change the amount of money you spend.
m
09-12-2011, 12:11 PM
I agree with what Michael said. Simplicity is your friend. Quality isn't really sacrificed if the intent is to deliver HD video anyway, and color flexibility isn't really sacrificed if you use the correct transcoding parameters.
I would add that if the light, flat look of the RedlogFilm files is really annoying, and you happen to be editing on a system that includes a client monitor, you could easily use something like an HDLink Pro to insert a Log to Video LUT in the viewing path and see a more "normalized" image on the monitor. That would allow for more director and producer friendly screenings in the cutting room. Not necessary, but potentially useful and definitely affordable.
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