ENG does not belonge here

[Steve Gibby]

With its many proposed EFP-friendly features (internal ND, powered zoom, etc) the 2/3" Scarlet Fixed would have been far and away the most EFP-capable camera Red has ever built. The originally planned 2/3" Scarlet detachable lens version, with S16 zooms, would have also been a potent EFP camera.

Though I own and totally love Epic cameras, I was very sad the day the 2/3" Scarlet cameras, with their original specs, were cancelled - and I'm still am sad about that, along with many others here.

The above said, Red did what they felt they needed to do, and I certainly understand that. There were undoubtedly factors involved in the 2/3" Scarlet cancellation which none of us here know - or will ever know. It is what it is...

[albert rudnicki]

+1 Gibby
Sad day it was when 2/3 was terminated.

[Ron Reddick]

My 2 cents,
My red 1 was lighter then my old Digi Beta rig, lugged it across afghanistan as did a few others, shot doc work, ENG for yes, news, quick feed from ProRes and they were happy, and sell plenty of stock 4k Afghan footage. Now the Epic is lighter, has been to Kabul twice and I love it for that, paired with my Optima Zoom and Red bricks and it rocks, light, easy to use and stunning pictures. The news will air what it gets, and if the best shoots are from en iPhone for the event, that airs, but I never have had anyone turn down Red footage

My opinion is it is a great ENG and EFP camera, and I lone gun a lot of the time out there with my camera and external audio into a cantor X, never a problem with weight.

Ron

[Rob Macey]

At network news, I use my F900 and HDX-900 for NBC-Dateline, Today Show and Nightly. At CBS News, XDCAM.
I've been a tv news photojournalist for 18 years.

TV news is a freight train when it comes to equipment. Slow to change. Lowest of budgets and prorities when it comes to gear.

Shooting with my R1 "ENG" style as a splinter crew or OMB works perfectly depending on what's needed for any other genre other than news. But, using it in the day to day news ops would be impractical for many reasons. In the time it takes my R1 to boot up, the live shot and package have already aired.

However, using RED for net news specials or doco's, instead of the daily grind, is completely possible and has been done, if everyone is on the same page from pre to post. In tv news, we're always on the same page;)....At NBC, it was only a year ago that post could handle footage from a 5D card... So, I think R3D files shouldn't confuse anyone at the bureaus;)

[Nick Morrison]

I agree that ENG shooting on the RED is totally possible. Here's where recording AVID DNXHD proxies on a PIX 240, Atomos Samura, or the BM Hyperdeck Shuttle makes total sense. They are 10bit 422 Avid files, perfect for broadcast. If they want to invest and REALLY grade the piece later, they can always go back to the RED files. Easy to do if all the metadata matches.

Another plus is how small the Scarlet/Epic is, which is helpful on doc shoots.

[Robert Knoll]

I support the tool box line of thought. I have Red, Canon, Sony Altcine XDcam and the list goes on. In any situation I can make most of them do what I need but some are more of a challenge. A good shot is a good shot regardless of the device or the target. As creators I would not want to be restricted. I have read some great articles posted here from youth thinking out of the box and have been blown away by their output. I could say I would never do that but sometimes we can wow ourselves. Yes, I do run and gun and the Red is a pain for that but who says life is easy? Does eng need a controlled depth of field or 4k res? Maybe it does these days.

[Curt Pair]

I'm new to Red. I've just purchased an Epic M (#565). One of the reasons I always "stayed away" from Red was that I heard it was big, cumbersome and not user friendly. This was supposed to be exaggerated in run and gun situations.

What brought me to the Epic was that it was MUCH smaller than the Red One, lighter and easier to manage. I built my entire package around the idea of using this camera for ALL of my clients: high end (indies, commercials, big budget corporate), and broadcast (TV shows, specials, opens/promos, even feature pieces). I decided I needed a Red Clutch for this kind of work early on, and I'm glad I bought it! I'm here to tell you, that this is a WONDERFUL camera for ENG work! I'm NOT doing "nightly news" type pieces with it... however, I am doing feature pieces for sports programming, special news programming (that airs say... on Sunday mornings...), and corporate work.

The goal of video since its inception has been to replicate the look of film. Most of my clients want that shallow depth of field look. The Epic can truly deliver that, and in a codec they can use! As others have stated... I'm using a Pix 240 for FCP & Avid based clients, and I'm using a nanoFlash for Sony XDCam HD based clients/workflows. I also roll in 5K. If the client wants or needs offspeed footage or HDRx footage, I transcode that later. However, for most of my clients, the Pix or nano are perfect.

I own several PL mount lenses, however I've found for more run and gun situations, if I stay with PL, the Red Pro Zoom 17-50 is the lens of choice for me... it's light, fairly fast, and looks great. I've recently purchased an Optitek Nikon mount too. This will be my new standard for run and gun situations! The lenses are just as fast, even lighter and have great quality. I do know that the focus pulls are harder, but it's something I'm willing to work with.

I think the most ironic thing about this particular discussion is how closed minded so many people are! Isn't that what Red prided themselves on in the beginning? They thought out of the box! Then I notice Red reps on this site aren't in favor of their cameras in this vein. (I'm not advocating the Epic for use in reality TV... and let's hope that trend goes away soon! ) I believe I'm carrying the true pioneer spirit of Red by introducing their products to clients that NEVER THOUGHT they could use these cameras! They love the footage. They love the look. I think the Red Epic is the closest camera I've EVER used in terms of color reproduction that duplicates what my eye sees. It's totally amazing. That's the main comment I hear over and over... "Look at the color!" Sure, it may have something to do with my "look..." and I saturate the colors fairly heavily, but the fact that the camera has that ability is remarkable.

I brought SD and HDV clients to XDCam HD years ago with this same school of thought... introduce them to the camera, provide the footage they way they want, and in time, they'll want to cut with that original footage too! It worked very well... my clients all loved me for it. Now, they're even happier!

[Steve Gibby]

Curt,

From the outset in 2006 Red has said that Red One wasn't necessarily designed for ENG (electronic news gathering), but was definitely designed and intended for EFP (electronic field production) and cine style work. Where a lot of people run into misunderstanding is when others lump all non-cine work into an erroneous collective term ENG. ENG is just that - news gathering. My Sticky post at the top of this forum, which I wrote clear back in March 2007, and Jarred put up as a Sticky, very clearly defines the difference between ENG and EFP work. In that Sticky post I mentioned that Red One isn't well suited for news gathering work because of the quick turnaround and editing needs, and the need for more ENG friendly features on the camera. News B-roll and peripheral segments not under a hard news time deadline are something Red One definitely has been used for. Epic is even easier to use for that than Red One, being smaller, thus more mobile, and having the availability of smart mounts.

But for EFP work, especially for mobile (non-hardlined) EFP work, Red One can be a great camera for the right productions and in the right hands. I've been making EFP friendly camera feature suggestions on the old DVX User Red forum since early 2006, and here on Red User ever since it first opened in December 2006, and I'll continue to. I'm one of the original pioneers of EFP work with Red One cameras. In September 2007 I was already testing out B4 2/3" HD zooms on Red One 0008. As soon as the Nikon mount was ready I was among the very first to setup Red One with Nikon lenses for mobile EFP work on all my Red One cameras. My setups with Red One were all about mobility for hybrid mobile EFP production - no matte box (screw-on filters), no follow focus (hand racking of lens barrels by operator) no AC (all focusing by eye by operator), quick EFP style exposure via zebras, 35mm still lenses even with some using custom rocker servo zoom units adapted from B4 2/3" lenses, and on and on.

Since Red cameras first delivered in August 2007 ENG use of Red One has been very limited, but EFP use of RedOne has been widespread. Fast forward to Epic. Its smaller, lighter, has a smart Canon mount, and a smart Nikon mount on the way, and a smart Red mount and Red Electronic Lenses on the way - and all of those things are way EFP friendly. The Epic camera itself also has many more EFP friendly features than Red One. All that adds up to a fact: Epic can be an incredibly good mobile EFP camera when setup, lensed, and accessorized for such work - and when used by experienced EFP shooters with open minds. No amount of elitist rhetoric from other portions of the motion media industry can negate Epic's mobile EFP utility and versatility. Some portions of the motion media industry look down upon someone being so "rude" as to actually use Red cameras for what in their elitist minds they perceive as inferior motion media work - namely EFP work. Many of them have minds so narrow that if they fell face first on a pin they'd put out both eyes ;). I consider an attitude like that to be their problem - and I never let it be mine - proverbially "water off a duck's back".

The "big budget corporate and broadcast" work you described is non-hardlined EFP work - not ENG (news gathering). That's my zone too: mobile TV productions in the genres of alternative sports, adventure travel, wildlife, documentaries of various kinds, cultures, lifestyle, nature, high end corporate, music, some commercials, stock footage, etc. - not reality work, but rather high production value mobile EFP documentary work.

I think you and several other innovators and freethinkers on this thread made some very good points - ones I've agreed with since 2005 in relation to Red One, and now even more so with my Epic cameras. The hard thing about using Epic is for the user to have broad enough skill sets, and an open enough mind to fully maximize what the camera itself is capable of.

Epic is all about flexibility, modularity, and adaptability - unfortunately many Epic users simply fail to see or utilize those capabilities.