Is R3D 4:4:4 or 4:2:2?

[Adam Beck]

Television programs generally don't go through "rigorous" post production, and now that Next Element is no more, I don't really know of any Red shows being finished directly from the R3D files. If I'm wrong on that, please feel free to correct me.

Television and features are very different beasts, with very different requirements, conditions, post schedules, and post production approaches. The advantages of Red are very clear in features, as they largely relate to resolution and its ability to hold up under very large screen viewing conditions, as well as flexibility when the original files are made available, which is more common on features and more necessary due to the use of "look creation" techniques. They're not so clear in television, where speed and simplicity are the orders of the day, and where the loop is not nearly as closed in terms of people doing what they're supposed to do all along the post path.

Mike,

Would you say that Redgamma 3 could potential increase the amount of Red's on television productions?

[M Most]

Mike,

Would you say that Redgamma 3 could potential increase the amount of Red's on television productions?

Honestly, no. Among other things, I've yet to see an image processed through Redcolor3 and Redgamma 3 that includes a human face in closeup. But more to the point, I don't think color improvements are the overriding factor here. Alexa images are generally delivered as LogC because that allows for a lot of detail retention and a lot of flexibility in grading, but with a reasonably good starting point provided by the standard Arri LUT with a color matrix. Colorists in general - and many cameramen, too - want images they can control, but that get to a good starting point quickly. That's what RedlogFilm and Redcolor2 already provide. The only real advantage of using something like what we've been shown in test images is if one wanted to forego color grading altogether and accept the baked in color as the final product. That is something that largely went away with cameras like the F900 and other earlier generation cameras based on video camera designs. In the network level television world, I don't see that as either desirable or likely. So while Redcolor3 will likely present improvements over Redcolor 2 (which was considered a bit too low on saturation by many colorists, although a bit more pleasing than Redcolor), I don't see wider acceptance based on the new color science alone.

Now, if an HD image could be recorded on camera using Redcolor 3 and RedlogFilm, well........

[Evin Grant]

Now, if an HD image could be recorded on camera using Redcolor 3 and RedlogFilm, well........

This I certainly agree with. Also as a personal preference I tend to like less sturation. The default 709 space on the Alexa looks much too pumped and sort of circusy to my eyes. Of course this is easily corrected for with the Log-C but that may account for my preference of Epic skin tones.

[Adrian Jebef]

I think the simplest definition someone wants is "1920x1080 resolution in all 3 colors." RED has enough sensor sites to satisfy that requirement for 4:4:4.

If you view 4:4:4 as a fancy way of saying 1:1:1 (e.g. as a ratio) then no the ratio is not 1:1 for all channels of resolution @ 4k. Once you supersample though down to HD (and compare to Alexa) it's *at least* 1:1.

And none of that has anything to do with skintones. That's a colorimetry question not a resolution question. If it were a resolution question then SD skintones from RED would be better than the same image in HD--which isn't the case. In fact I would say the opposite is true. At HD you can dither the color and get perceptual color accuracy beyond that of the same bit-depth in standard definition. I still see agree that skintones out of RED are more frustrating than out of some other cameras and film in particular--hopefully something that Redcolor 3 will resolve.

Gavin:

I am not looking for anyone here to "give me the answer I want". I am simply interested in provoking a good disscussion about things everyone seems to understand completely yet constantly offers up different definitions by way of zero explanation.

4:4:4 is a ratio and fundemantly refers to 1:1:1 or equal RGB sampling. And as you say the Epic nor its R3D file contains 4:4:4 color information at 4K. Unfortunately, the RGB image from the Epic is only decoded at its native resolution (4K). From there it can be resized to 2K/HD but it is not re-debayered for a proper HD 4:4:4 output by using adjacent RGBG pixels to calculate finer color rendition.

It would be great to have this option though...

[Graeme Nattress]

"not re-debayered for a proper HD 4:4:4 output by using adjacent RGBG pixels to calculate finer color rendition" - I'm sorry, but with statements like that you really don't know what you're talking about.

Graeme

[Adrian Jebef]

"not re-debayered for a proper HD 4:4:4 output by using adjacent RGBG pixels to calculate finer color rendition" - I'm sorry, but with statements like that you really don't know what you're talking about.

Graeme

G:

So please tell us. I do not work for RED. How is downscaling handled with an R3D file targeted to 2K/HD?

[Graeme Nattress]

Well, you've told us "but it is not", so to say such a thing you must know "what it is"? And what is "re-debayered "?

To answer your question, typically a full-demosaic is performed followed by a downsampling process. We provide for a number of selectable downsampling filters, all of which use adjacent pixels.

Graeme

[Les Dittert]

Debayer native sensor data.
Resize image to 2K or whatever using selection of methods.
The smaller you make the output image the closer you get to what is being referred to as 444.

G:

So please tell us. I do not work for RED. How is downscaling handled with an R3D file targeted to 2K/HD?

[Adrian Jebef]

Debayer native sensor data.
Resize image to 2K or whatever using selection of methods.
The smaller you make the output image the closer you get to what is being referred to as 444.

But color accuracy depends entirely on the RGB photosensors on the camera and the chosen debayering method. A debayering to 4K would yield different color results than a debayering to 2K/HD. A debayering to 4K that is then resized to 2K/HD will deliver the same color results.

[Adrian Jebef]

Well, you've told us "but it is not", so to say such a thing you must know "what it is"? And what is "re-debayered "?

To answer your question, typically a full-demosaic is performed followed by a downsampling process. We provide for a number of selectable downsampling filters, all of which use adjacent pixels.

Graeme

Hmmm... I was hoping for a more in depth explanation.

So can you tell us where the selectable downsampling filters are located in RedCine X?