From REDCODE RAW to DNG?

[Trevor Meier]

Any thoughts on allowing export from RedCine to DNG files? This would allow taking RED footage into a tool like Lightroom or Photoshop for a custom look. REDCODE RAW to DNG should be a relatively simple format translation... no debayering or other processing required.

Reason I'm asking... I'm unhappy with the colour fidelity and manipulation tools that are currently available for digital video until you get in the high end. A Baselight allows for fine control of images at very high quality.. but there's no way to get close to that image fidelity for less than a few hundred thousand.

However, in my photography business, I've been used to having that sort of fine-level image control for years. The tools already exist for a few hundred dollars. They're not designed for moving images, but there are methods for dealing with that problem.

We're getting there... it'll be interesting to see what Apple does with Final Touch, for example... but RED is about creating options. And... well, there's not a whole lot out there within indie reach for onlining 4K moving images just yet.

[Rob Lohman]

Do you really need that? The only thing that you should be able to do extra is use a different debayer algorithm. All other controls should be available for regular RGB data.

Just export unprocessed 16-bit RGB stills from REDCINE and load those up into Photoshop or any other package you want to use.

[David Newman]

Rob,

I think DNG support would be nice. If you want to perform the same types of color information DNG offers on a 16-bit RGB file, for a start the RGB file is 3 times bigger, many times slower and typically RGB is gamma corrected whereas DNG is linear. It is not possible to offer every color correction feature that Lightroom or Photoshop offers on DNG within REDCINE, yet DNG exports would be much simpler than any other file format you intend to support. Without the metadata the DNG export will take you a couples of hours (or less) to develop -- it is a fixed header size (with limited issues, just copy a header off another DNG to start with) with 16-bit RAW linear data straight from the sensor.

[Trevor Meier]

Just export unprocessed 16-bit RGB stills from REDCINE and load those up into Photoshop or any other package you want to use.

Unprocessed 16-bit files would require almost 4x the storage as RAW 12-bit, and require far more processing time. As well, whoever's running RedCine will have to take care to preserve highlight & shadow detail since it's being baked in.

[Rob Lohman]

Unprocessed 16-bit files would require almost 4x the storage as RAW 12-bit, and require far more processing time. As well, whoever's running RedCine will have to take care to preserve highlight & shadow detail since it's being baked in.

You could disable all processing and leave the image linear. Basically just the debayer has been applied.

Yes, the files will be larger. But the processing time will not if you have a fast enough RAID. The target applications converts the RAW to RGB anyway. So the only downside is more disk space and perhaps the loss of some RAW tools in Photoshop (or other DNG supporting applications).

I'm not saying this won't be in it, but it isn't at the moment. DNG files are a special form of TIFF files so not that hard to generate. It however does take time to develop and more importantly to test. We have to weigh what kind of features to get into this first release.

[Matthew Greene]

Hi David, if you don't mind me asking I'm curious as to where CineForm sees itself in regards to RED and it's users.

[David Newman]

Hi David, if you don't mind me asking I'm curious as to where CineForm sees itself in regards to RED and it's users.

We will support the users with our Prospect 2K/4K products as much as RED allows, and probably a tad more (consider that Panasonic wasn't supportive in CineForm adding HVX200 support -- we did it anyway.) We know REDCINE will output to QuickTime based compressors, so CineForm Intermediate will work fine. For CineForm RAW support we have requested unmodified (no-demosaic, no color processing) RAW data from REDCINE, and RED is thinking about it. Also we would love to offer an external recorder to support 4K at 60p and 2k at 120p. Email RED or post here to encourage a open design for third parties.

Since we have 10-bit log, 10-bit linear or 12-bit linear as full_options@REDCODE, your 12-bit skepticism is not a problem anymore or don't you agree?

Absolutely agree that 10-bit log (depends on the curve) will be the highest quality mode for any lossy image compression (particular those compressed much more than 5:1, which REDCODE will be.) 10-bit linear is an odd offering as even 8-bit 709 with a 2.2 gamma is superior (8-bit 709 has more shadow precision than 10-bit linear uncompressed.) Linear compression is cool but only for mathematically lossless compression applications, or uncompressed.

[Emanuel A.]

David,

Since we have 10-bit log, 10-bit linear or 12-bit linear as full_options@REDCODE, your 12-bit skepticism is not a problem anymore or don't you agree?

[Roberto B]

Absolutely agree that 10-bit log (depends on the curve) will be the highest quality mode for any lossy image compression (particular those compressed much more than 5:1, which REDCODE will be.) 10-bit linear is an odd offering as even 8-bit 709 with a 2.2 gamma is superior (8-bit 709 has more shadow precision than 10-bit linear uncompressed.) Linear compression is cool but only for mathematically lossless compression applications, or uncompressed.

and the 12-bit?.. linear, of course.. because log there isn't there..

[David Newman]

and the 12-bit?.. linear, of course.. because log there isn't there..

Yes, 12-bit log has value, although it is not intintive to use it from a 12-bit linear sensor; understanding compression and the human visiual factors make it worth while. 12-bit log should be added, that is what we are are adding to CineForm RAW.