Controls and Menu Items

[Mark Thorpe]

Hi Guys,
I understand Spike is just getting screwed down and all things are still in the air but I would imagine around this time you have a pretty finalized idea of the camera's physical layout. Is there any possibility that you could talk us around, or post images, of the external controls on the camera? Also give us a run down of the menu chapters and sub menus? Big question but this would help many of us to start in our mental preparations for the day when we actually take delivery of our cams.

If this is not viable now, could it be at least made a priority for the time when the production path allows?

Cheers,
Mark.

[Mark Thorpe]

I mean like an exploded diagram with all controls labeled etc.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Mark Thorpe]

Seems like that may be asking to hand over the keys to the candy store so hey, I'm sure we'll all get up to speed on that as and when the time is right.

Cheers,
Mark.

[RobRoySyd]

I mean like an exploded diagram with all controls labeled etc.

Cheers,
Mark.

Seem to me like a very sensible question. I was going to ask much the same and then I thought I must be dumb, surely this info is somewhere but it seems not so. Can I add connectors to that list as well. What they're for, how far apart etc. A basic dimensioned engineering drawing would be more use to those seeking to provide meaningfull feedback than 3D renders and photos.

I know this could be a bit of a Catch 22 situation, the design is in flux but one of the reasons I thought it was in flux was from feedback from here, but if we don't have the information to make the feedback...well, you get the idea I hope.

One small tidbit I've read is about the use of Mini XLRs for audio inputs, in my experience Mini XLRs aren't the most reliable connectors around. Plus that then means having mini to standard adaptors, hopefully using a short length of cable, but thats a XLR line plug & socket hanging off the camera which could be a problem putting strain on the Mini XLR. That's also compounded by having to use pretty tiny cable to fit into those Mini XLR connectors.

[Stephen Gentle]

Seem to me like a very sensible question

I agree. I would love to see a walkthrough of the menus and a drawing of the controls too.

-Stephen

[Stuart English]

In due course, yes. But you may be suprised how simple the menus become when running in a RAW workflow. Most of what we have come to expect in terms of camera menus are RGB and interlace domain video processing - such as black stretch, "film gamma" curves, vertical aperture, skin tone detail etc.

When you have a high dynamic range progressive scan sensor combined with a high dynamic range recording system, you become more like a film camera body - with minimal controls optimised for efficient operation, and with focus on the images rather than the camera electronics.

[Evin Grant]

Yummy, I love efficient menus.

[RobRoySyd]

In due course, yes. But you may be suprised how simple the menus become when running in a RAW workflow. Most of what we have come to expect in terms of camera menus are RGB and interlace domain video processing - such as black stretch, "film gamma" curves, vertical aperture, skin tone detail etc.

When you have a high dynamic range progressive scan sensor combined with a high dynamic range recording system, you become more like a film camera body - with minimal controls optimised for efficient operation, and with focus on the images rather than the camera electronics.

That's fine for those recording RAW, what about those recording 10 bit through SDI?

Still leaves the issue of look management. That mighn't be an issue for the indies but being able to define the final look to some extent on the day of the shoot could be mighty handy otherwise the DOP is going to be spending a lot of time in post.

There's still the question of audio gain controls or does the camera only accept +4 line level? If so fine, makes a lot of sense to me however I wonder how many realise they'll need to add a decent field mixer to get mics into the camera.

The question of physical layout is still there as well, power connectors, audio connectors, TC in/out connections, record button, SDI connections.

[Finner]

Being a shooter/director I always think "picture" first and it seems like the RED team is right on top of achiving fantastic menu options and outputs for many variations. It is the audio that concerns me most with this camera. Which is funny because I tend to always put audio at the bottom of my list. The mini XLR's just seem like a bad idea to me and if there are no external audio control buttons and the audio control is in the camera menus then audio could become quite a nightmere if dealing with it on the fly.

If size is an issue I feel even channel 1 audio XLR and channel 2 mini XLR would be better then 2 mini's.

[RobRoySyd]

Being a shooter/director I always think "picture" first and it seems like the RED team is right on top of achiving fantastic menu options and outputs for many variations.

If you read what is being said above then no, there'll be no options in camera for changing the "look" of the image. I guess you'll be able to control shutter speed / angle and that's it. This will be exactly the same as shooting film, the only way to influence the look is by filters in front / behind the lens and by choice of stock and processing.

As an engineer I find this a great concept, the RAW data can be manipulated in post to your hearts content as nothing is burnt into the neg / RAW data.

Except this seems to be the antithesis of the traditional way of working, stock is chosen to achieve a certain look and filters might be put in front of the lens as well, depending on many artistic decisions, many of them made on the day of the shoot. All this is now being moved to post.

I can see issues with this concept, you light something based on how a certain stock reacts to light, in the digital domain you make lighting decisions in combination with camera setting etc. So now we have a camera that records everything but there's nothing, not even 35mm print stock that has the matching latitude. How is the look of the final image going to be evaluated on the set?
Being able to see the processed RAW footage live on set would seem a very desirable feature to me. With film and tests and an experienced DOP the look can be locked down on thhe shoot pretty well with film. I really think we need input from the creative people and DOPs on these topics. I got involved in a lengthy discussion with a DOP at NAB last over another digital film camera. At the time he thought the concept was a dog for these reasons (I disagreed strongly at the time but now grasp where he's coming from).

One possibility might be to record data (similar to how LTC is recorded) through one of the audio inputs. This could be read back in post to adjust the image based on the DOPs preferences from the shoot.

I'm far, far from very knowledgeable in these matters, no experience, just a lot of reading and trying to understand. Based on that I really think these issues deserve more disussion.