Scarlet / Canon / Sony frustration

[paulherrin]

Am I missing something? Isn't 8 bit a dealbreaker for anyone who is serious about filmmaking?

8-bit is the future! ;)

[Josh Beadle]

Try entering a car race with a minivan sporting a 150hp motor. You are going to get your ass handed to you by a guy in a Ferrari. Specs and numbers do matter.

Unless you're Robert Rodriguez . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Mariachi

[Hrvoje Simic]

Pretty much. However, not everybody in the market is serious in that way.

Such as Anthony Dod Mantle.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Not by any stretch a knockout punch.

Feature	RED Scarlet-X	Canon 1D-C
Price (shooting package)	~$16.5k*	~$16.5k*
4k fps	30p	24p
4k Sensor Size	s35	APS-H
Low Light Noise	Good	Great
RAW	Yes	No
Bit Depth	16bps (14?)	8bps
Chroma Sampling	~4:4:4	4:2:2
Dynamic Range	~13 stops	~13+??
Rolling Shutter	??	??
Debayer	Full	Binning
Footage Processing Time	Eons	None
Weight	8 lbs +	< 5 lbs
Volume	Little Noisy	Silent
SDI/HDMI Output	10bit	8bit
Expandability	Sensor Upgrade	Sell/Repurchase
Stills	5k APS-H @ 12fps RAW	*5k FF35 @ 12fps RAW
Lens Mount	Interchangeable	Fixed
Integrated HDR	Yes	No
Availability	In-Stock	"by End of 2012"

And by the time the 1D-C is out we'll have Dragon-Scarlet most likely. But the 1D-C does look like a good 4k lightweight self-sustained documentary camera. Much easier to load up on CF-Cards and hit the wilds than a laptop and REDCard reader.

Really? Show me how you do that, and tell me what job that set up will be ready to handle.

Well If you didn't include batteries (which the 1D doesn't include either it would bring you down to $15.9k and if you bought one 64GB card and were willing to shoot 12:1 you could shoot about an hour of footage on one card for $15k.

*:

Scarlet:
$11,700 (body, SSD drive, Al Mount)
$1,500 (5" Touchscreen)
$1900 (2x 64GB cards)
$600 (x V-Mount)
$400 (4x 95wh batteries Axrtec)
$200 (V-Mount Charger)
$200 (Redstation USB3)
$200 (x SideHandle)

$16,700

Canon:
$15,000 (body, mount etc)
$690 (6x LP-E4 Batteries)
$879 (2x SanDisk Extreme Pro 64GB Cards) (Is this fair? Will it use substantially less space than a Scarlet?)
$450 (SmallHD 4" LCD) (Is the new 1D's LCD usable?)

$17,019

[Brad Webb]

I bought into RED because of the upgrades and loyalty they show to their customers. I knew at some point the other camera companies would have similar products, but they WON'T be upgrading your sensor any time soon. Just ask everyone that bought a C-300.

[Tom Lowe]

Feature	Scarlet	1D-C
Price (shooting package)	~$16.5k*	~$15.5k
4k fps	30p	24p
Sensor Size	s35	s35
Low Light Noise		X
RAW	X
Bit Depth	16bps	8bps
Chroma Sampling	~4:4:4	4:2:2
Dynamic Range	~13 stops	??

I thought DSMC REDCODE RAW was 14 bit?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I thought DSMC REDCODE RAW was 14 bit?

I seem to remember that too. (Not that 16bits does any good for a 13 stop sensor). But RED.com reads:

REDCODE™	16-bit RAW Processing : Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1 1-12 fps 5K FF 1-30 fps 4K HD 1-48 fps 3K HD 1-60 fps 1080p HD 1-120 fps 1K

[Bruce Allen]

Hmm, agree, Gavin. However... also in Canon C300's favor:

1. cost of media
2. uncropped nice downscaled 1080p / 60
3. light weight
4. battery life
5. top-of-class still photo ability
6. greater chance of actually playing back a PJPEG 4K file without a CANONROCKET

Look, there's no way in hell I'm buying this stupid 1D-C thing as a hobby toy... apart from total lack of funds, personally I think that Sony's going to do a 4K video DSLR for muuuuch cheaper within the next year or two.

I wouldn't buy it for pro use either... unless I was planning on shooting some guerrilla thing, in which case, shooting 4K with something that looks like a DSLR could save me $15,000 in permits :) I for one have a vivid memory of lugging a RED ONE around while being chased by an official on a bicycle... with this thing nobody would have looked twice!

Personally I think that this is Canon's defensive move against RED's DSMC intiative. Let's face it, there are a lot of fashion photographers who are... well, kinda nitwits. They probably are worried about Epic / Scarlet... but really have NO CLUE how to handle an R3D and if given half a chance they'd much rather stick with their Canons. So this gives them an excuse to buy a new cam and pretend that they are future-proof. Well, at least they can tell their clients "IT SHOOTS 4K!". And hey... it will shoot great stills and video that'll look really sharp on a laptop - and in the end of the day, I think that's all some people want.

Am I missing something? Isn't 8 bit a dealbreaker for anyone who is serious about filmmaking?

Well... Sony F900 was 8-bit! This Canon one is 8-bit Log, which should actually make better use of the bits available too...

Also, once you scale down a normally-noisy 4K 8-bit file to HD, you have more like 9-bit... as long as it didn't macroblock.

And when you apply noise reduction, that can sometimes create in-between tones.

So yeah, 8-bit can be decent. A bit worried about when they stick the PJPEG compression on top of that, though...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Josh Beadle]

Wiki says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Dig...re_Epic_brains

[David W. Jones]

Try entering a car race with a minivan sporting a 150hp motor. You are going to get your ass handed to you by a guy in a Ferrari. Specs and numbers do matter.

It's a question of the right tool for the job!

Try picking up a family of five from the airport in a Ferrari.
The 150hp minivan has the clear advantage here.

Same holds true for cameras. Pick the right tool for the job at hand.

All the Best!

Dave