ACES...

[Graeme Nattress]

David, it doesn't not work now (as long as you ensure DRX is on in the decode to avoid funky highlights) with respect to the camera. We were able to verify the ACES code values we're generating are reasonable and about as correct as you'd expect from any camera given every camera is not perfect so I think you can say Epic works with ACES.

However.....

Although the ACES colour space is fixed standard, but the rendering part of the ACES workflow that takes ACES data and makes a viewable image is a moving target as the Academy go through iterations on their rendering and monitor specific output code to achieve the image they want to see. Other than the aforementioned issue of ensuring DRX is on for the creation of ACES data, any rendering issues I've seen are to do with how ACES data rendering in general is developped and not camera specific. Rendering issues are, however, shot specific in that some scenes can appear much more reasonably rendered than others. So ACES rendering may or may not work, but that's not an Epic camera issue. This goes back to what Jim said when he started this - ACES is in development. We don't think that it's suitable to use "in anger" on a real world production today. If you are experimenting with ACES, that's fine, and if you're experimenting with Epic and ACES you really should be in close contact with myself and the Academy.

Graeme

[Zack CC]

David, it doesn't not work now (as long as you ensure DRX is on in the decode to avoid funky highlights) with respect to the camera. We were able to verify the ACES code values we're generating are reasonable and about as correct as you'd expect from any camera given every camera is not perfect so I think you can say Epic works with ACES.

However.....

Although the ACES colour space is fixed standard, but the rendering part of the ACES workflow that takes ACES data and makes a viewable image is a moving target as the Academy go through iterations on their rendering and monitor specific output code to achieve the image they want to see. Other than the aforementioned issue of ensuring DRX is on for the creation of ACES data, any rendering issues I've seen are to do with how ACES data rendering in general is developped and not camera specific. Rendering issues are, however, shot specific in that some scenes can appear much more reasonably rendered than others. So ACES rendering may or may not work, but that's not an Epic camera issue. This goes back to what Jim said when he started this - ACES is in development. We don't think that it's suitable to use "in anger" on a real world production today. If you are experimenting with ACES, that's fine, and if you're experimenting with Epic and ACES you really should be in close contact with myself and the Academy.

Graeme

This is an important and quite reasonable distinction. Set life can get pretty rough.

Still, I'm looking forward to the trial by fire. I have faith that it will get sorted out.

[Graeme Nattress]

Talking about this can be pretty tough - although conceptually simple enough, the details get pretty dense pretty quickly, and then straight into acronym overload - ACES, RRT, OCES, ODT etc. It's nice to have a good discussion about it here, but I'd much prefer to be doing it around a big table and a nice bottle of whisky :-)

Graeme

[Ian Vertovec]

the rendering part of the ACES workflow that takes ACES data and makes a viewable image is a moving target as the Academy go through iterations on their rendering and monitor specific output code to achieve the image they want to see.

Graeme

This is pretty much exactly why I hesitate to use something that is widely considered "work-in-progress" on professional jobs. What happens to older jobs when new RRT/ODT's are released? Why would you use a system that has known render issues when there is literally zero issues with 709/P3 workflows?

Everyone in our industry pretty much agrees that ACES is the ultimate destination. But why the rush to pressure cinematopgraphers to move in before the house is built? Seems irresponsible to me.

I want to do everything possible to make ACES a reality, but that does not include turning a professional filmmaker into a guinea pig.

[Gunleik Groven]

This is pretty much exactly why I hesitate to use something that is widely considered "work-in-progress" on professional jobs. What happens to older jobs when new RRT/ODT's are released? Why would you use a system that has known render issues when there is literally zero issues with 709/P3 workflows?

Everyone in our industry pretty much agrees that ACES is the ultimate destination. But why the rush to pressure cinematopgraphers to move in before the house is built? Seems irresponsible to me.

I want to do everything possible to make ACES a reality, but that does not include turning a professional filmmaker into a guinea pig.

LOL
This is the most frequent post-cticism of RED, and a good example of why - on larger projects like 6+ hours of episodicals - it can be a very good idea to lock into some RGB format... :)

Gunlek

Loving RED and the concept of ACES...

[Francis Kenny]

Hi Graeme. I wrap Saturday evening. Home Sunday. Atlanta seems to be the major hub for airplanes and the movie industry. I'd love to have a conversation with you regarding my experiences using the Epic Camera, other camera systems, and ACES. I can tell you that before each project there is a battle to use the Epic camera. I have had to put my own job on the line many times. My faith in Red, the team, and Jim, has always won that battle. On each project the non believers become Epics biggest promoters. As a Board Member of the ASC we talk about ACES during the committee reports. I've sat on many panels talking about the advantages and disadvantages of using ACES. It's an interesting concept to find a generic way to develop images. But as you well know what works for one camera doesn't for another. I also know that there are forces behind ACES that have nothing at all to do what's best for the cinematographer. I recall how vision stock has the latest and greatest improvement for film. Yet how many people know that vision came about because of the EPA. I know you are able to read between the lines of my words. When I come up for air I'll come by the stage with a few of my ASC friends to see what's new and improved. Yesterday the studio heads came to Atlanta and could not stop complimenting me for how beautiful the images are coming from this little camera. I always give credit to Red. I also tell them that most don't have a clue what they are talking about regarding the proper workflow. I'm a big fan of Michael Cioni, besides going to Princeton (I'm a Harvard man), he's one of the smartest people I know. I hope people listen to what he's saying. I find there is so much disinformation out there now. You have two types of people. The ones that know nothing and are afraid to ask. And the ones who have the courage to ask and find out the truth. My goal is not to help sell cameras. It's to help other cinematographers bring out the best in their work.

[Graeme Nattress]

"My goal is not to help sell cameras. It's to help other cinematographers bring out the best in their work." - Well said Francis. My goal with cameras is a broad and neutral canvas for you to work on, allowing you to do your best work.

Graeme

[Chuck Z]

LOL
This is the most frequent post-cticism of RED, and a good example of why - on larger projects like 6+ hours of episodicals - it can be a very good idea to lock into some RGB format... :)

Gunleik, you read my mind! I came here to post the same thing.

Oh, the irony...

[Bill Anderson]

Fascinating read.

So... how about this "Races" - Could we have a little profile please?

Edit: typo

[Tom Hamilton]

I guess Jim has an evil plan for benevolent world domination he will spring on us in due course. That's usually the way it works in these parts. :-)