ACES...

[Graeme Nattress]

That is one issue, but the primary issues at this point have to do with the RRT. IDT's are reasonably straightforward. The RRT is not. The current and past versions of the RRT are very, very complex and due in part to this complexity have some issues with certain images. The RRT is a "work in progress" and is being constantly tweaked to make it simpler, more usable, less noisy, and less prone to "breaking" with certain image values. That's probably what Jim is referring to.

Essentially correct. We know you must use our DRX control full-on to make an ACES file that works with their rendering. That is, as far as I know, the only RED specific gotcha. With the RRT I've seen simple ones and complex ones throughout it's progress and indeed many of the iterations have had noise or colour issues. The latest one I saw was less simple than the previous iteration, so there's obviously still some work to do there. It's that kind of issue we need to deal with next, and they're not RED specific issues, but ACES rendering issues in general. The ODT (output device transform) is also somewhat problematic and needs to be looked at too in the same way that the RRT is being looked at. The present REC709 ODT is very contrasty, for instance.

Jim's comment stands though: " We strongly discourage anyone from using ACES in its current form to grade anything RED except test footage. It is critical that ACES is not considered a current solution for production quality work with RED footage."
- and I'd add that if you are using it you need to be in good communication with Alex at the Academy, and if you're using it on RED footage, you need to be speaking directly to me also.

Graeme

[David Mullen ASC]

My dad was in the Navy, all of these initials and acronyms remind me of that...

[Tom Hamilton]

Yes, the Navy is a TLA-intensive operation (Three Letter Acronym).

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Is ACES a physical spec or is it a relative spec? And by that I mean if I shoot something at 5600k with 5600k lights does it simply save "White" as "White" or does it save 6500k as "6500k"? Similarly does it define "saturated" or does it say "200 lumens"?

I imagine ideally it would simply capture everything in "real world terms" so that if you had say an HDRx track and a normal track the HDRx track would be stored as 0.75 -> 2.0 while the normal track was maybe stored from 0.25-> 1.0 without any need for luminance offset to match the two tracks.

Today when you save out HDRx you get a "0 - 1.0" value and a second "0 - 1.0" value even though one of the tracks is actually "0 - 4.0" relative to the other.

[Michael McLaughlin]

David you are truly brilliant in some of your comments.

I was in the Army, and yes they also use AOA: Acronyms Out the Ass


But all kidding aside, this is something I find fascinating and unbelievably important.


Keep it up RED.

[Tim Whitcomb]

My dad was in the Navy, all of these initials and acronyms remind me of that...

meantime while you smart guys figure this stuff out... a bunch of HUGE movies are coming out that didn't bother with ACES. :)

[M Most]

meantime while you smart guys figure this stuff out... a bunch of HUGE movies are coming out that didn't bother with ACES. :)

I honestly don't understand your point. All technology gets improved over time, and all methodologies get refined over time. ACES is an industry wide initiative that is currently a work in progress that will hopefully provide improved and standard approaches to some current issues (archival formats are one very major one).

I could just as easily point out that a bunch of huge movies are coming out that aren't being shot on film. Or Red cameras. The statement would be equally as meaningless.

[Jannard]

There are many ways to get to the finish line. ACES will be one way when it is mature. It just isn't right now. Staying R3D through to the end is another. And this way is proven.

Jim

[Bruce Allen]

There are many ways to get to the finish line. ACES will be one way when it is mature. It just isn't right now. Staying R3D through to the end is another.

Jim

But you understand that you can't stay in R3D till the end if you have VFX shots, right? Because VFX must start a long time before the grade.

For most films, staying in R3D till the end is just not an option.

It's:
- work in ACES, with tons of dynamic range, in defined, vendor-neutral color space (best)
or
- work with log DPXes or EXRs, with RGB primaries aligned to color science of primary camera (costs more because VFX team must match their stuff to RedColor3, which is undefined and non-standard, easier if you use Alexa because Arri has a website that gives you every LUT you need)
or
- work with log DPXes or EXRs, with all footage converted to primary post facility's color space (OK if Technicolor or whoever defines your LUTs - and they do, thank heavens... defined as "bad" by RED because facility color spaces are seen as "film-based")
or
- work with log DPXes or EXRs, with 709 or P3 primaries (okay in P3 case, ore limited color range in 709 case)
or
- work with HDTV standard - eg no log space, limited dynamic range (what people do - which is really bad because you clip stuff)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Jannard]

It is all about how you get to EXR... we understand that VFX needs this. It is just about how you get there. You can't screw it up by putting a predetermined look on it or inducing artifacts in the process. Currently ACES does both.

Jim

But you understand that you can't stay in R3D till the end if you have VFX shots, right? Because VFX must start a long time before the grade.

So for 95% of films, staying in R3D till the end is just not an option.

It's:
- work in ACES, with tons of dynamic range, in defined, vendor-neutral color space (best)
or
- work with log DPXes or EXRs, with RGB primaries aligned to color science of primary camera (costs more because VFX team must match their stuff to RedColor3, which is undefined and non-standard, easier if you use Alexa because Arri has a website that gives you every LUT you need)
or
- work with log DPXes or EXRs, with all footage converted to primary post facility's color space (OK if Technicolor or whoever defines your LUTs - and they do, thank heavens... defined as "bad" by RED because facility color spaces are seen as "film-based")
or
- work with log DPXes or EXRs, with 709 or P3 primaries (okay in P3 case, ore limited color range in 709 case)
or
- work with HDTV standard - eg no log space, limited dynamic range (what people do - which is really bad because you clip stuff)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com