frustrating meeting with Post houses

[Glen Powell]

Just got back from a meeting with a major post facility here in Toronto. I was there as the VFX supervisor for a feature film that will be shot next month. The choice of camera was not decided on prior to the meeting but of course I was gunning for the Epic. Well, unfortunately the Alexa won out because of what I felt were misconceptions. I believe these guys were looking for the path of least resistance which means more money for them. They made the claim of the Alexa looks so much more filmic, more latitude, less noise, less cost of storage, blah blah blah. Talked to the colourist and he loves working on the Alexa footage because it's so easy.... Needless to say, I was beaten up and left dejected. At one point the guy there even made a crack about Oakley sunglasses! Quite honestly, these post houses are soon to be dinosaurs... sorry for the rant.... long live RED!

I think I've sat in that same post house and had that same conversation… several times over the years. Right back to a shoot years ago when I wanted to use an HVX200 at Everest Base Camp (obviously didn't want to carry a bigger camera, tapes, etc) but the post house didn't want me to shoot P2 in HD because: "We don't have enough hard drive space to handle the files"; so I did the edit with the agency on a laptop in a cabin beside the fire during our descent.

Humans are lazy and want the path of least resistance.

[Hans von Sonntag]

The success of Arri's Alexa is build upon Red's weaknesses and, of course, the very good reputation Arri always had in the industry.

Red's RAW workflow IS difficult to understand. The ISO thing that is only virtual metadata is beyond the brains of thousands of DPs, producers and directors. I've met quite a few colleagues that shot tons of stuff with the Red successfully although they never really understood the concept behind the compressed RAW workflow. The only reason why they don't screw up things is that they follow Red's advise and dial in ISO 800 and RedGamma3.

Then RedCineXPro. There are so many variables to tweak, color sciences to chose from, gamma curves no one understands. What's the differences between RedLog and RedLogFilm? Half good, half premium, full or quarter? RedCineProX is NOT made for the 55 year old DP that is forced to shoot digital. It's geekery for the colourist. I haven't met one single DIT that really knew how to deal with RedCineC Pro. In this forum people are red-centric, hardcore freaks, RAW nerds. And even here you read the same questions again and again. No wonder that outside reduser the situations is hardly better.

Posthouses hate to take responsibly for the quality of camera footage. Traditionally not their realm. Hence they use the camera metadata. They use funky metadata settings, even if they don't make sense at all. Mostly they even don't know that something can be changed dramatically to the better. Only a very few understand Red's concept. Who's fault is that? The post house's? Hardly. They been around many, many years BEFORE Red entered the market 4 years ago - and there is finally an alternative: Alexa.

Alexa is easy as it gets. If the footage is crap it's the DP. No transcoding, nothing. And if the DP argues that the Alexa's DR is a tad wider it's hard to prove him otherwise.

Now resolution. Fact is that only a very few projects need more resolution than 1080p. That will change in the future but not tomorrow or in 2 years. Post workflows are build upon 1080p. It took almost a decade to complete the tradition from SD to HD, it will take another decade to make the same happen with HD to 4K. There isn't even a broadcast standard for 4K yet. Only the very small market of films for the big screen will adopt 4k sooner than later.

A ProRes module by Red would solve all that.

Hans

[Brian Merlen]

True, but the next firmware should fix that, and a 6 percent crop in really isn't that big a deal I think...I guess for some people it is

That's not entirely true...yet. Yes, you can record it but if a client asks you to deliver 16:9 without black borders, you can't without transcoding. This is about to be a moot point I think because RED is working on it and about to deliver it from what we've been told.

As for why people care so much about Alexa, you have to ask yourself why people care so much about any camera. It comes down to many things. It's not always about price. It's not always about workflow. It's not always about pristine image quality. Line up five of the top DPs in the world right now and ask them what they will shoot their next feature on. You're in for a very interesting conversation. :-)

[Hans von Sonntag]

... and a 6 percent crop in really isn't that big a deal I think...I guess for some people it is

Haha. A 6% crop is the world. I can tell my clients on set that the small letterbox is later gone... it's much more a video assists, you know.... But in the rushes? For get it.

Hans

[Ruff]

I don't know what the solution is... but for whatever reason, working with Alexa is perceived to be easy, Red is perceived to be hard.

Now, we know thats not true.

But this is essentially a marketing problem, a branding problem.

Red needs to change the perception in the marketplace.

I don't know how.... maybe give Al Ries a call? http://www.ries.com/

[Hans von Sonntag]

I don't know what the solution is... but for whatever reason, working with Alexa is perceived to be easy, Red is perceived to be hard.

Now, we know thats not true. http://www.ries.com/

No. It's true.

Download the file form Alexa's SSD card and your are off to edit, feed Flame, Baselight and whatnot. No transcoding, instant access. And frankly the LogC curve is very good, so is the colour science and for 1080p the resolution.

The reason why I did not leave Red's train is that Epic is much smaller and lighter, I have more resolution to play with and, of course, 120 fps in 4KHD. Actually with the Epic I'm there when 4 years ago I switched from the 435 to digital, but in a much better form factor.

Hans

[Bruce Allen]

Yep, it's not hard to make the argument for Alexa.

It's not just extremely easy, but also extremely easy to explain. Three options:

1. You just want pretty, edit-ready, 709 color space files out of the camera in crisp, full HD? No problem!

2. You want dynamic range and grade-ability? How about we give you Log images with 12-13 usable stops in an edit-ready format out of the camera? Anyone who understands log film scans can grade these. BTW, here's a website they can go to where they can download LUTs for every single post program.

3. You want RAW? Here you go. It's a bit of a hassle, but not as CPU-intensive or confusing as RED.

Anyone want to have a go at explaining RED workflow in a similar way?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Matt Gottshalk]

Yep, it's not hard to make the argument for Alexa.

It's not just extremely easy, but also extremely easy to explain. Three options:

1. You just want pretty, edit-ready, 709 color space files out of the camera in crisp, full HD? No problem!

2. You want dynamic range and grade-ability? How about we give you Log images with 12-13 usable stops in an edit-ready format out of the camera? Anyone who understands log film scans can grade these. BTW, here's a website they can go to where they can download LUTs for every single post program.

3. You want RAW? Here you go. It's a bit of a hassle, but not as CPU-intensive or confusing as RED.

Anyone want to have a go at explaining RED workflow in a similar way?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

All excellent points.

[Scott Crawley]

As Scarlet projects begin to appear, and folks outside of the industry begin making images of quality with them, NOBODY on the inside is going to be willing to cop to the notion that Red is beyond their skills or understanding. Nobody. I don't mean to wander onto conversations like; there will be a million ugly pieces of shit for every one good looking shot, or anything of that nature. All it is going to take is a few talented ameteurs to produce anything of note to shut up the naysaying elite. It can and will happen. That's my prediction.

[Colin Hubick]

Just got back from a meeting with a major post facility here in Toronto. I was there as the VFX supervisor for a feature film that will be shot next month. The choice of camera was not decided on prior to the meeting but of course I was gunning for the Epic. Well, unfortunately the Alexa won out because of what I felt were misconceptions. I believe these guys were looking for the path of least resistance which means more money for them. They made the claim of the Alexa looks so much more filmic, more latitude, less noise, less cost of storage, blah blah blah. Talked to the colourist and he loves working on the Alexa footage because it's so easy.... Needless to say, I was beaten up and left dejected. At one point the guy there even made a crack about Oakley sunglasses! Quite honestly, these post houses are soon to be dinosaurs... sorry for the rant.... long live RED!

As a fellow VFX super, I hear what your saying, best advice is to stick to the upsides Red has to offer. In our shop, we make great use of the 4k elements, even if it's a 2k finish. We all kinda cringe at the thought of 1080p ProRes material for our working media. We would much rather have the option, then a take or leave it situation.

best of luck Bob.

Colin