Challenge to Zacuto...

[Paul Schneider]

But the problem is no is going to watch this and judge the dp. They are gong to see How the dp lit it and judge the camera.

DPs are worse than 8th grade girls, they gossip like crazy. An unforunately tests like these get throw in the rumor mill as representations of cameras. Deakins could light something
On an iPhone that would look incredible. But is that reason for every other dp to start shooting features on iPhones? No.

If u can't make a fair test, based solely on a camera performing in iys natural element, then don't do one.

If it werent for crap like this DPs would do their own tests. Unfortunately, even those that do have preconceived biases because of these 'shootouts' and the industry suffers as a result.

I must say that I disagree with pretty much this entire statement and the assumptions that drive it...especially given that no one has seen the project yet.

[paulherrin]

Lol, good joke!

This gets at an interesting issue that I rarely see addressed head on, and that is... does DP = camera guy or does DP = "God of Light and Shadows"? To some, both. But so often I see DP being bantered about as merely the guy wanking with the camera, a Master Sgt Videographer if you will. Personally, I love a DP who's primarily concerned with lighting and will allow the camera choice, settings and operation to be a free floating responsibility. So sometimes that means the DP is operating, or maybe the Director is, or maybe a kick ass operator is. Sometimes a DP is well suited to choose the camera, sometimes not. If it was a choice, I'd rather a DP know how to use every item in the G&E trucks then know what menus to operate on camera.

Balance is always good. It gives a DP tremendous advantages to have deep knowledge about his recording device. How would you know how to light if you didn't know what film stock you have? Of course the DP shouldn't be the chief executive camera op. But a good DP controls his light all the way from the solar/electric source all the way to the sensor (and beyond!) That being said, the creative decisions that have little to do with what camera is being used are what really make a DP.

It's about your 'eye' - not technical precision.

[Alec Morris]

I must say that I disagree with pretty much this entire statement and the assumptions that drive it...especially given that no one has seen the project yet.

What exactly do you disagree with? The fact the you want to wait until people have 'seen the project' when these cameras have been out for a while now (especially the Alexa and epic, which, let's be honest, are the two important ones) proves why so called 'shootouts' like these can be so damaging

I can tell you that as a professional judging cameras based on their performance in the context of present and future digital acquisition and presentation I don't need to see this test to know it's incredibly flawed. The guidelines tell me as much. If you did a camera test 10 years ago and only watched it on the tv broadcast quality of the time would you be happy with your observations today? Absolutely not. But you'd be stuck with anything you shot back then. Good luck doing a bluray release

[Jannard]

Zacuto... Zacuto... where art thou?

Jim

[paulherrin]

where, or wherefore? that is the question. ;)

[Paul Schneider]

What exactly do you disagree with? The fact the you want to wait until people have 'seen the project' when these cameras have been out for a while now (especially the Alexa and epic, which, let's be honest, are the two important ones) proves why so called 'shootouts' like these can be so damaging

I can tell you that as a professional judging cameras based on their performance in the context of present and future digital acquisition and presentation I don't need to see this test to know it's incredibly flawed. The guidelines tell me as much. If you did a camera test 10 years ago and only watched it on the tv broadcast quality of the time would you be happy with your observations today? Absolutely not. But you'd be stuck with anything you shot back then. Good luck doing a bluray release

We are both professionals.

I disagree with the fact that you seem to think its some kind of plot...you keep referring to it as a test when its been explained more as an aid to help folks understand and get the most from various platforms. Perhaps the name "shootout" is the problem...especially if its more about lighting and education, but they can call it whatever the hell they want...I'll wait to see it before I judge its content.

The phrasing seems to indicate that DP's aren't smart enough to make their own choices, to to their own testing and that they basically believe and spread everything they see or hear, which as professionals we would both obviously know is simply not true.

Lastly, folks can make whatever they want. Suggesting someone not to make something they are passionate about because you don't agree with it...well...not my style.

[Jannard]

My problem with the Zacuto tests are:

The camera companies have no control over the processing.

The final results are 2K.

That's about it.

Jim

We are both professionals.

I disagree with the fact that you seem to think its some kind of plot...you keep referring to it as a test when its been explained more as an aid to help folks understand and get the most from various platforms. Perhaps the name "shootout" is the problem...especially if its more about lighting and education, but they can call it whatever the hell they want...I'll wait to see it before I judge its content.

The phrasing seems to indicate that DP's aren't smart enough to make their own choices, to to their own testing and that they basically believe and spread everything they see or hear, which as professionals we would both obviously know is simply not true.

Lastly, folks can make whatever they want. Suggesting someone not to make something they are passionate about because you don't agree with it...well...not my style.

[Alec Morris]

We are both professionals.

I disagree with the fact that you seem to think its some kind of plot...you keep referring to it as a test when its been explained more as an aid to help folks understand and get the most from various platforms. Perhaps the name "shootout" is the problem...especially if its more about lighting and education, but they can call it whatever the hell they want...I'll wait to see it before I judge its content.

The phrasing seems to indicate that DP's aren't smart enough to make their own choices, to to their own testing and that they basically believe and spread everything they see or hear, which as professionals we would both obviously know is simply not true.

Lastly, folks can make whatever they want. Suggesting someone not to make something they are passionate about because you don't agree with it...well...not my style.

I didnt mean to say you aren't pro, I assume everyone that posts on here knows what they're talking about to
varying degrees.

My problem is that this test as it's presented does not seem
Like an aid at all. It seems like a judgement of the cameras. And thats how I assume most people will read it. A camera is standard, it's performance doesn't change. DP's vary greatly, and though they seem
To be the variable here they are not what is being judged. The camera is.

Two DPs walk into a bar. One says to the other' "you see the zacuto shootout? Epic didn't have skin tones as well as alexa'. The other DP says 'really?', never sees the test, but in the meeting for his next project says 'epic has crap skintones'. He never knows that the first DP just didn't like the lighting in the epic part of
The test.

Not a very funny joke when I try and convince a producer I wanna use my epic but he doesn't like it because he heard from that DP that the zacuto test showed the epic didn't do well with skin tones. I know that's not their intention, but that's what happens. And I'm just giving an example, it could be the Alexa that's gets lit poorly!

[Alec Morris]

It's just like in sports. If my team loses, then so be it. I just don't want the refs to decide the game. I know they don't mean to screw up the calls, but it's still an unfair loss.

Sorry I've been at the airport bar watchin the NBA playoffs. Thunder up!

[Josh Snyder]

My problem with the Zacuto tests are:

The camera companies have no control over the processing.

The final results are 2K.

That's about it.

Jim

1:

I did beg to get RED involved with the test long before the challenge started. I sent emails to both Jim and Ted explaining that they could pic their own DP or team to shoot and light the scene any way they wanted and that they would have complete control over their post production. I also explained that they could even take the footage and post process it where ever they wanted and then return it back to us and we would insert it into our show. With no response to the various emails I sent, we made posts on Reduser asking for suggestions of DP's to operate the EPIC...

2:

2K is 2012. 2K is what the audience sees. You provided only 1K and 2K versions of the Tattoo "EPIC Short Film". I think that says it all.

Zacuto shootout is made to show how each camera performs when the films are finished to be seen in 2012 (or upcoming years till the 4K starts becoming more popular).