Unacceptable rates?

[Peter Strietmann]

I have always found the quality of the people you work with and hence the quality of the work you realize is directly proportional to the assessment of what people believe you are capable of. One way to quantify this is by what people are willing to pay you.

Tell them to fuck off.

[Domenic Barbero]

i like you peter :)

[Nick Morrison]

Domenic, I feel for you. We live in a brand new world where prices are completely in flux. The landscape has become so flat and long that it's very hard to know what is a fair price anymore. Some people are happy to rent a "RED" with full lens package for $1500 a day, they don't care whether it's a Scarlet, R1, or Epic. Others want to low ball you and get it for free. There is no set standard anymore.

I could go on a rant here about the democratization of talent and skills, but I will spare you. The truth is, many of us can do many more "jobs" than was possible even 10 years ago, because technology has allowed that to happen. So many of us can shoot, direct, edit, mix, record sound, act, do graphics, it's hard to keep track. Everyone's signatures are littered with "slashes" (director/writer, etc), mine included.

However, that being said, I have found that the cream rises to the top. The people that embrace what they are BEST at and focus on that...tend to do better, and get paid more. We all have access to gear now, but our talent and experience is now what separates us.

Which means ultimately that we all need to band together, and be honest about what we are good at. A team comprised of great shooters, great editors, and great writers is more likely to deliver a great product...than one person struggling mightily to do it alone.

So, though I've ended up giving you the speech anyway, I'll leave you with this.

F*ck these clowns. They suck for trying to low-ball you, and their low-rent tactics speak volumes about how they treat people and their projects. Stick to your rates, stick to valuing your talent, and the more you focus on your own skills and character, the more THOSE qualities will get you paid...eventually more than your gear.

Don't work with them. They are not worth it. And they don't get it.

Good luck.

[Domenic Barbero]

thanks nick. Thats basically the conclusion ive come to.

[Paul Schneider]

i like you peter :)

Your price seems fine to me. Maybe it could be a bit high, but I would expect to pay at least 8-9k for a rental of that length.

[Domenic Barbero]

plus my 20 days labor for cam op, i thought seemed pretty fair.

[Alex Kornreich]

I have always found the quality of the people you work with and hence the quality of the work you realize is directly proportional to the assessment of what people believe you are capable of. One way to quantify this is by what people are willing to pay you.

Domenic, I feel for you. We live in a brand new world where prices are completely in flux. The landscape has become so flat and long that it's very hard to know what is a fair price anymore. Some people are happy to rent a "RED" with full lens package for $1500 a day, they don't care whether it's a Scarlet, R1, or Epic. Others want to low ball you and get it for free. There is no set standard anymore.

I could go on a rant here about the democratization of talent and skills, but I will spare you. The truth is, many of us can do many more "jobs" than was possible even 10 years ago, because technology has allowed that to happen. So many of us can shoot, direct, edit, mix, record sound, act, do graphics, it's hard to keep track. Everyone's signatures are littered with "slashes" (director/writer, etc), mine included.

However, that being said, I have found that the cream rises to the top. The people that embrace what they are BEST at and focus on that...tend to do better, and get paid more. We all have access to gear now, but our talent and experience is now what separates us.

Which means ultimately that we all need to band together, and be honest about what we are good at. A team comprised of great shooters, great editors, and great writers is more likely to deliver a great product...than one person struggling mightily to do it alone.

So, though I've ended up giving you the speech anyway, I'll leave you with this.

F*ck these clowns. They suck for trying to low-ball you, and their low-rent tactics speak volumes about how they treat people and their projects. Stick to your rates, stick to valuing your talent, and the more you focus on your own skills and character, the more THOSE qualities will get you paid...eventually more than your gear.

This is a straight camera rental, there's no skill involved... From the sound of it, they're not trying to hire a camera operator, he just wants to operate so he can look after his gear. On a $10K feature budget, they have no money to hire an operator (or any other crew for that matter).

To the OP, since you didn't know rental houses charge 3 day weeks, you probably aren't familiar with what rental rates are supposed to be. A good rule of thumb to use when determining rental rates is 1-2% of the purchase price for the day rate. If it's an item that will have significant depreciation over the short term, like something electronic that is replaced every 3 years (ie scarlet), it will be 2-2.5% of the purchase price per day. For things that don't depreciate much over the long term, like lenses, it's more like .7-1% per day. For example, an $80K 12:1 optimo rents for $550/day (.07%).

Based on looking at your camera package, a reasonable day rate is probably 1.5-2% of the full purchase price of the camera package, which at approx $30K should be about $550-$600/day. Then factor in 3 day weeks, but in this case it'll actually be a 9 day month (another rental house practice), and you're looking at best at $5400 for the whole shoot. Then figure there's a little more negotiating, and you should probably make out with $4500-$5K for the whole shoot.

There's still other variables, like how rare is a scarlet where you live, whether youll be oping, etc.

$10K was super high, and $3K is somewhat low. If I got offered $4K-$5K for that package, I'd take it. That's paying off 15% of your purchase price in less than a month, which is a solid return.

[Nick Barton]

Alex, I do not agree with the 1-2% assessment. We try to get 3-5%. When factoring in our loss in the equipment, insurance, depreciation - 1 to 2% is way low.

[Alex Kornreich]

It's definitely market dependent, so maybe in Wichita you can get away with 3%-5% because there's less supply, but in LA or NY that's not happening. I deal with different camera packages from both rental houses and owner/ops on a weekly basis, and rates are never that high. For Alexa shoots sometimes it may be closer to 3%, but never for Red.

[Domenic Barbero]

I agree that my price was originally too high. That being said. At 7500 that would be a fair price in my opinion. Its crazy that people want such expensive gear for so cheap. but i have to pay for insurance and be on set, not to mention my personal work stops for 20 days as well. It may pay off a good part of my camera, but to want 30k worth of camera and accessories for a feature and only pay 150 a day, that seems pretty insane. Id rather not deal with the stress of people using my camera unless it was really worth it. which at around 7500 i would think is fair. I am DP on a short film that is only 4 days of shooting and they hired me on for 3k for 4 days. That is doable for me. but im not a rental house, nor do i have rental house insurance or standards, so rental house rules only mildly apply to me. Im sure they could go to a rental house and get a nice package for kinda cheap, but considering the add ons and lens and dit, i think this is fair for now. Im not a renter, but i should be more savvy to pricing since it is a good way to pay back some investment.