Unacceptable rates?

[Alex Kornreich]

I owned a Red for 3 years and was often in the same position. I had the camera for my own dp/operating work, but would often get called for just rentals, which I didn't like doing. Sounds like this isn't the right job for you, unless the rental rate is worth it, which it isn't in this case.

[Erich Ocean]

I agree that my price was originally too high. That being said. At 7500 that would be a fair price in my opinion. Its crazy that people want such expensive gear for so cheap. but i have to pay for insurance and be on set, not to mention my personal work stops for 20 days as well. It may pay off a good part of my camera, but to want 30k worth of camera and accessories for a feature and only pay 150 a day, that seems pretty insane. Id rather not deal with the stress of people using my camera unless it was really worth it. which at around 7500 i would think is fair. I am DP on a short film that is only 4 days of shooting and they hired me on for 3k for 4 days. That is doable for me. but im not a rental house, nor do i have rental house insurance or standards, so rental house rules only mildly apply to me. Im sure they could go to a rental house and get a nice package for kinda cheap, but considering the add ons and lens and dit, i think this is fair for now. Im not a renter, but i should be more savvy to pricing since it is a good way to pay back some investment.

They should be paying 1%/day based on the purchase price of the gear on a negotiated deal (if it's truly $30K in gear, that'd be $300/day or $6K for the whole shoot). You should charge at least $100/day for yourself if your going to operate; I suppose you could charge less otherwise if you can afford it, that's a personal decision. So, assuming they shoot every day, you're looking at $300-400/day or $6-8K for the whole shoot, depending on how much your charge for yourself, for a camera package that they could go and buy for $30K new tomorrow.

I don't know anyone who is getting 3-5% on rentals, but I would certainly never rent from someone who tried to get that from me, on commodity gear. On a speciality item that's impossible to get and I just had to have on a particular shoot? I'd consider it. But that person would still go on my "they just fucked me" list.

When I go to rent from someone, I actually just specify 1% of purchase price up front. None of this 'what wil you charge me' stuff. 1-2% on gear is the norm, and any good producer should be professional enough to get 1% every time. That's all I ever budget for. It's fair, and makes it straightforward for both parties to make money and work together again on the next job.

NOTE: The reason 1% is the standard number is that above that, it becomes cheaper for a production to buy gear and sell at the end, especially for a high-use items like a camera. There's absolutely nothing special about your Scarlet package.

[Domenic Barbero]

though i understand i have a standard package. Even at 7500 there is no way they could get that package,nor even think of buying it. I say maybe 1% on a feature is pushing it a little low. Maybe just for the camera, but i just dont see how its possible to rent a 4k camera that is better than almost any other camera an indie person will shoot on, other than RED/alexa and for less than what the rental places in seattle charge for an fs100 or af100 for a day. with NO accessories at all. just camera, lens, battery.

[George Tsai]

Dominick remember all insurance certs are void without proper rental contract signed

Does that apply even if you're paid to be on set with the gear as either cam op or DIT?

[Domenic Barbero]

If i get paid to be DP or Cam op, i just include the camera package price in my paycheck for me personally. then i dont have to worry about insurance hoops. I just show up, shoot, get paid, go home. I just make sure our rates are negotiated and stuff prior. Basically i like to bring my own hard drive if they dont pay up front. Then i send all footage to that drive. then when they pay me i can just transfer it over. But this is just for like a one or two day shoot. just to protect myself.

[Erich Ocean]

though i understand i have a standard package. Even at 7500 there is no way they could get that package,nor even think of buying it

Are you really suggesting that a producer can't spend $30K, use their brand new Scarlet for three weeks, and then turn around and sell it for at least $24K? I certainly could, and so could pretty much anyone with an Internet connection.

And because this happens, guess what, they wouldn't even buy it new! They'd buy some *other* producer's $30K camera package for $24K (after he just did the same thing), and then sell that after three weeks for $21K. Now he just got your camera for three weeks for a grand total of $3K, plus a little bit of his time. The next producer does the same, and so on.

Above 1%/day, a competent producer is going to look for alternatives, especially on a widely-used and available item such as a camera. Below 1%/day, I generally don't bother, since I have other things to do with my time. I also want the people I'm renting from to stay in business, and solvent, which is why I don't attempt to negotiate lower, even when I probably could.

(In reality, the producer would just acquire a C300 a little over retail, and then sell it back four weeks later at a small loss, since that's the camera least likely to lose value since the demand is incredibly high right now, and because it's a heck of a lot cheaper to operate than a Scarlet (batteries, media, lighting package). Doing that would get their camera package price on a 20 day "feature" shoot below $3K even going the purchase route, and is probably what they should do, IMO.)

[Domenic Barbero]

well do you know anywhere these particular fellas could buy a 30k camera package for 3k? because they were really adamant about not having any money and 3k was stretching their budget. im not saying its true for all occasions, but for this one it certainly isnt happening.

[Bruce Allen]

though i understand i have a standard package. Even at 7500 there is no way they could get that package,nor even think of buying it. I say maybe 1% on a feature is pushing it a little low. Maybe just for the camera, but i just dont see how its possible to rent a 4k camera that is better than almost any other camera an indie person will shoot on, other than RED/alexa and for less than what the rental places in seattle charge for an fs100 or af100 for a day. with NO accessories at all. just camera, lens, battery.

Um, the question is this - which is a higher cost:

1. Renting from you for $7,500
2. Buying a $30,000 Scarlet package, then selling it after the movie is done. Add interest to that, plus lost opportunity cost (eg if you had invested the $30,000 otherwise).

It's quite possible you could buy a $30,000 Scarlet package, shoot the film, then sell it for more than $22,500 after a month or two... especially if you bought the package used to begin with.

And of course depending on how they do their taxes, there may be incentives to either buying or renting.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Curran Giddens]

plus my 20 days labor for cam op, i thought seemed pretty fair.

Wait, you were expected work too?

I rent my gear for pretty low rates. But for me to go out and work too would be very expensive. My time is worth way more.

[Erich Ocean]

The way to game the system as a renter is to specify a package that is "more" than what a producer actually needs, and refuse to part it out. (That's perfectly acceptable IMO, though it could lose you jobs if your package is too big...)

Since the production won't need everything in your package, you're basically renting out some of your gear that never gets used at 1% day.

If you have ethical issues with that, just tell yourself the gear is available and *could* have been used if and when it was needed.

Everyone wins, and you don't have gear just sitting on a shelf gathering dust.