Cancel that thought...

[Elsie N]

I have an EPIC and Alexa and use the Alexa 99% of the time. It has nothing to do with workflow, post houses have both workflows down easily. It's simply the image. Also, my Alexa shoots 120 fps using the entire sensor which would be my pref over cropping the sensor. 300fps crops the sensor so extremely I consider it unusable. Would rather just rent a Phantom. Dragon will change this of course, but it will also still possibly be stuck with the "RED look". People like myself don't just pay 50-70% more money for an Alexa for the hell of it, there's a very good reason. Producer's reasons for asking for an Alexa is because of results. They don't care how lightweight an EPIC is, or how much you didn't have to pay for upgrades, or how good the community is, or how often Jim posts in the middle of the night. The Alexa has an amazing look and that is all they care about. I feel the same. I wish my Alexa was as lightweight and small as my EPIC, but the image easily makes up for it (and not needing to deal with fan speed management or needing a Pro I/O module helps a lot as well).

If you love your RED camera, then love on it all day and rejoice in the fantastic technology at a fairly cheap price, but I wouldn't go making assumptions on why other people choose the cams they choose. Just putting in my 2 cents as it bugs me every time I hear people give what I feel are false justifications why they think people all don't use REDs all the time. There is no "Alexa problem". RED is leading the way for getting a lot of stuff for less money (although BlackMagic just made a major dent in that ratio) and ARRI is leading the way in best image. Producers would rather the latter as they aren't camera owners. Same with colorists. They like that the image looks almost perfect straight out of the gate rather than messing with secondaries to get all the colors in order and that saves a lot of time and money. There are many, many reasons beyond things that RED owners enjoy about their cams. Many things to consider. No camera is THE answer. I wouldn't see it as a problem that you can't get everyone on the planet to use the same thing you own.

Personally I don't care if the Zacuto tests exist or not as I can do my own Red vs Alexa tests all day in my pajamas. But I certainly don't understand what all the animosity is about it.

Arri Stockholm Syndrome.

[Chris Smith]

Chris, I think there are some objective people here. But when it comes to cameras, I don't think there is such a thing as true objectivity. Especially in the case of a comparison between Alexa and Epic. It tends to be very subjective. In my opinion, there's no better way to make your point then showing examples, visual examples. Shoot a scene with both cams, post the results and have a discussion. Timur did it recently with the Scarlet and the F3. Turns out he needed to refine some things. It was a beneficial discussion. I welcome these kinds of things. If it's not appropriate for Reduser, host it elsewhere. Saying it and showing it are two different things. Those who have never used an Alexa may not have a solid reference point for comparison.

I don't think your points are invalid. I do think Alexa is chosen for more reasons than just workflow. I know several DPs who really like the image the camera produces. People may react emotionally here, but that's because it's a passionate forum, pretty much unrivaled anywhere on the web when it comes to camera forums. But personally, I am not that interested in pissing matches. I like productive discussion, because quite often it can be a learning experience for everyone involved. It's the kind of vibe you want on a community based forum. Everyone striving to get better, willing to help each other get better, and in the end a great resource of information.

Great points, Steve. Good to see a few rational people around between the "Stockholm Syndrome posts". I had a nice discussion between MMost, Graeme and others in the "Skin Tones" thread a while back. So no point in repeating here. I made the mistake of making a small digression to provide another POV to a point made earlier in this thread making the assumption that producers choose another camera out of ignorance. I have since looked around this forum in the last hour and it's jaw dropping to see the one-sidedness of it all. It's my fault I will say. Taking a step back, it's as if I went to a Christian forum and posted about other religions in the world and how other people are happy with them. I got the equivalent response of "Other people are going to hell then" in this metaphor I'm making. So I believe it's my fault for posting why I'm happy with cameras that are not RED IN a RED forum. I will find more clear-headed places to discuss the business elsewhere.

I'm having deja vu from when I made the mistake of posting in forums in the late 90's where SONY users were hot and heavy on the Varicam and proclaiming film is dead and people who still use film are idiots. I made the same post then that we still use film for a reason and producers ask for film for a reason even though it's more expensive. I was called an idiot and that I just don't know how to use the camera right. I still think I was right back then, but that's here nor there.

As for all this business about ARRI having bad customer service, it's not remotely true in my case. ARRI has emailed me during holidays and even had me call one of them on their personal cell phone to resolve a situation after hours. 5 star service. Same with AbelCine. Top Notch. Again, I own both cameras, I've used both cameras (including 35mm for 11 years).

So again, sorry for coming into this forum that is looking for one result. It was probably rude on my part. But I don't really post here much. I only used to come here regularly looking for color science updates hoping to make the camera look better. [removing reduser from browser bar].

[Elsie N]

Great points, Steve. Good to see a few rational people around between the "Stockholm Syndrome posts". I had a nice discussion between MMost, Graeme and others in the "Skin Tones" thread a while back. So no point in repeating here. I made the mistake of making a small digression to provide another POV to a point made earlier in this thread making the assumption that producers choose another camera out of ignorance. I have since looked around this forum in the last hour and it's jaw dropping to see the one-sidedness of it all. It's my fault I will say. Taking a step back, it's as if I went to a Christian forum and posted about other religions in the world and how other people are happy with them. I got the equivalent response of "Other people are going to hell then" in this metaphor I'm making. So I believe it's my fault for posting why I'm happy with cameras that are not RED IN a RED forum. I will find more clear-headed places to discuss the business elsewhere.

I'm having deja vu from when I made the mistake of posting in forums in the late 90's where SONY users were hot and heavy on the Varicam and proclaiming film is dead and people who still use film are idiots. I made the same post then that we still use film for a reason and producers ask for film for a reason even though it's more expensive. I was called an idiot and that I just don't know how to use the camera right. I still think I was right back then, but that's here nor there.

As for all this business about ARRI having bad customer service, it's not remotely true in my case. ARRI has emailed me during holidays and even had me call one of them on their personal cell phone to resolve a situation after hours. 5 star service. Same with AbelCine. Top Notch. Again, I own both cameras, I've used both cameras (including 35mm for 11 years).

So again, sorry for coming into this forum that is looking for one result. It was probably rude on my part. But I don't really post here much. I only used to come here regularly looking for color science updates hoping to make the camera look better. [removing reduser from browser bar].

Just something to think about Chris. This is, as you noted, a RED forum. Most people on here are RED camera owners. As such, they will readily defend their product of choice because that is what they make a living with. They (We) aren't interested in opinions that go against our chosen path because they (not me) may lose money in rentals etc. if someone comes here and convinces a potential renter that another camera may be a better choice. When you get in another person's pocket, expect pushback.

[Björn Benckert]

I have a quote from Graeme from this very board that says this is not true. May I dig it up?

Re: Not knowing grading systems.

I have spent hours with LUTS and curves with side by side images and tests and can easily get approximations like the samples that were just posted. But I don't think you are taking into account the details. What you are doing is like taking marginal sounding speakers and messing with a graphic EQ to try and sound close to balanced studio monitors. Then because your ear isn't refined enough, you call it done. I would rather have the high end , well balanced studio monitors in the first place. I'm not only talking about me, I'm referring to 2 different colorists who tell me how much extra work it takes for them to get a decent look from EPIC because of all the secondary work needed to get the colors balanced, most notably yellows and skin tones. This is the cue for you to tell me how they don't know their systems. I won't get into name dropping their credentials, but suffice to say they do. Granted this is before RC3, but I don't see how RC3 changed things much.

I should have known that I cannot try and have a balanced conversation on this board about the nature of various cams I own without, "If RED's not the best at everything, then you suck!". Unfortunate. But my point still stands. Producer's ask for Alexa for many reasons most notably it's look. I do not disagree with anyone who says EPIC looks clean and sharp. Absolutely. 1000%. But there's the aesthetic of the image.

Chris you know there is very exact mathematical ways to make one imager match another... looking at the luts and fiddle with the curves will bring you close but it's not like when you get a perfect alternation all across the the contrast range and color range with a sample density that only computers could handle... then If you got that then you will see that Red is capable of matching most cameras out there. but there are very few that can match the capture of Red. Alexa fail on each capture. Why, because of resolution, the step down in resolution is visible even by eye measures, even at a first glance. But the difference in dynamic range when perfectly matched is super hard to judge and it's scene dependent. Red works better in some cases other cameras can do better in other cases. Between alexa and Epic I see no problem for the epic to match the range... however Arri is left in the dust when looking at the resolution. Then you add HDRx to the equation and then there is not so much to talk about. Except for the "bang for buck" factor.... :)

I personally would find it much cooler to have 2 or 3 epics than one alexa...

[Elsie N]

Chris you know there is very exact mathematical ways to make one imager match another... looking at the luts and fiddle with the curves will bring you close but it's not like when you get a perfect alternation all across the the contrast range and color range with a sample density that only computers could handle... then If you got that then you will see that Red is capable of matching most cameras out there. but there are very few that can match the capture of Red. Alexa fail on each capture. Why, because of resolution, the step down in resolution is visible even by eye measures, even at a first glance. But the difference in dynamic range when perfectly matched is super hard to judge and it's scene dependent. Red works better in some cases other cameras can do better in other cases. Between alexa and Epic I see no problem for the epic to match the range... however Arri is left in the dust when looking at the resolution. Then you add HDRx to the equation and then there is not so much to talk about. Except for the "bang for buck" factor.... :)

I personally would find it much cooler to have 2 or 3 epics than one alexa...

Björn, just noticed you are from Stockholm... so I guess there is now becoming a RED Stockholm Syndrome

[Andy Roberts]

...it's as if I went to a Christian forum and posted about other religions in the world and how other people are happy with them. I got the equivalent response of "Other people are going to hell then" in this metaphor I'm making.

Are you just trying to be offensive?

Seriously, everywhere else there is so much anti-Red propaganda and lies, you have to expect RedUser to be a rallying place to put an end to the lies, even if a bit over the top sometimes.

An aside since you brought it up... And as for religion, if there is such a thing as ABSOLUTE TRUTH (and I believe there is), then it is normal for there to be a tension between two disparate beliefs. There is no need for hatred, but agreeing to disagree is a weak position when Truth is at stake. But a Christian who treats a non-Christian in a way that Jesus never would can't be a genuine Christian (how's that for an absolute statement?). But Jesus never agreed to disagree or let anyone stay "happy" with their false beliefs. He challenged status quo and it cost Him His life.

Back to cameras, thankfully there is some subjectivity to cameras so feel free to share your Alexa beliefs, but be prepared for the backlash, because there are some pure objective reasons Red is best.

[Bruce Allen]

Chris you know there is very exact mathematical ways to make one imager match another... looking at the luts and fiddle with the curves will bring you close but it's not like when you get a perfect alternation all across the the contrast range and color range with a sample density that only computers could handle... then If you got that then you will see that Red is capable of matching most cameras out there.

Well, yes - that would be true, if:
- light were just R, G, B.
- surfaces were just R, G, B
- camera sensors acquired pure R, G, B (linearly, without crosstalk or gaps)
- camera RAW development algorithms were perfect
- our eyes saw pure R, G, B
- and our brains processed color in pure R, G, B or H, L, S or L,a,b.

The thing is: those are very good, helpful approximations.

However, when you look close enough, you see that none of those statements are really true when you get down to subtleties. And the human visual system, though it has its faults, also can be amazingly sensitive to really really subtle things when it comes to things like human skin.

I would argue that if you had a camera that captured a dozen narrow bands of the color spectrum purely, you could indeed make it look like any other camera, given sufficient resolution and latitude. But with a real world Bayer RGB sensor? That's tricky.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Mark Phelan]

Great points, Steve. Good to see a few rational people around between the "Stockholm Syndrome posts". I had a nice discussion between MMost, Graeme and others in the "Skin Tones" thread a while back. So no point in repeating here. I made the mistake of making a small digression to provide another POV to a point made earlier in this thread making the assumption that producers choose another camera out of ignorance. I have since looked around this forum in the last hour and it's jaw dropping to see the one-sidedness of it all. It's my fault I will say. Taking a step back, it's as if I went to a Christian forum and posted about other religions in the world and how other people are happy with them. I got the equivalent response of "Other people are going to hell then" in this metaphor I'm making. So I believe it's my fault for posting why I'm happy with cameras that are not RED IN a RED forum. I will find more clear-headed places to discuss the business elsewhere.

I'm having deja vu from when I made the mistake of posting in forums in the late 90's where SONY users were hot and heavy on the Varicam and proclaiming film is dead and people who still use film are idiots. I made the same post then that we still use film for a reason and producers ask for film for a reason even though it's more expensive. I was called an idiot and that I just don't know how to use the camera right. I still think I was right back then, but that's here nor there.

As for all this business about ARRI having bad customer service, it's not remotely true in my case. ARRI has emailed me during holidays and even had me call one of them on their personal cell phone to resolve a situation after hours. 5 star service. Same with AbelCine. Top Notch. Again, I own both cameras, I've used both cameras (including 35mm for 11 years).

So again, sorry for coming into this forum that is looking for one result. It was probably rude on my part. But I don't really post here much. I only used to come here regularly looking for color science updates hoping to make the camera look better. [removing reduser from browser bar].

Chris, come on, you brought this on yourself. Your analogy is erroneous because it's not as if you went to a Christian forum and posted about other religions, but more akin to going into someone else's house and "poo-ing" (Toia vernacular) in the foyer, then continue on making a spectacle of how your view is better and everyone else here is a bunch of losers for liking what we perceive to be a superior system that is RED. You are a guest here as we all are in the house of RED. Mind your manners and don't be taken aback when others disagree with your views. You like the Alexa? Great, go use it and live a fulfilled life. There is no point trying to convince you otherwise, you've made up your mind. The real question is why do you keep an Epic that you say you have? That seems like a very expensive waste to have it sitting around for 1% of your work. Why not sell it and move on with life?

[Gavin Greenwalt]

but more akin to going into someone else's house and "poo-ing" (Toia vernacular) in the foyer, then continue on making a spectacle of how your view is better and everyone else here is a bunch of losers for liking what we perceive to be a superior system that is RED. You are a guest here as we all are in the house of RED. Mind your manners and don't be taken aback when others disagree with your views. You like the Alexa? Great, go use it and live a fulfilled life. There is no point trying to convince you otherwise, you've made up your mind. The real question is why do you keep an Epic that you say you have? That seems like a very expensive waste to have it sitting around for 1% of your work. Why not sell it and move on with life?

You must be reading very different comments than me. He said "I shoot mostly with Alexa because I like the image better. A lot of people choose Alexa because they like the image better not out of ignorance or misinformation."

That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to have. Saying he's flinging feces and accusing us of being losers is your projection not his words. If anything this level of defensiveness over really innocuous divergence of opinion reinforces his position that it's like talking to a religious convert who can't see even mild criticism of their belief without also projection caustic personal attacks along with them (that don't exist).

To address his original point. The #1 reason I've heard directors ask to shoot Alexa in Pre-Pro meetings is due to "I think it's the most filmic look of all the digital cameras." I haven't heard Pro-Res mentioned once or RED unreliability or any of that.

[Andrae Palmer]

To address his original point. The #1 reason I've heard directors ask to shoot Alexa in Pre-Pro meetings is due to "I think it's the most filmic look of all the digital cameras." I haven't heard Pro-Res mentioned once or RED unreliability or any of that.

If this is the case... and I hear that argument a whole lot... then why can't RED just create a more filmic default color profile? It seems like a silly issue when it's just color interpretation. I just don't understand why RED doesn't kill this argument by creating a more filmic REC709 profile.