NLE choices

[wlaroussi]

Hi ,

Here are some NLE and compositing software choice for the RED one :

1) With 2 and 4 K : The best is to use NLE that can handle uncompressed 4:4:4 RGB , YUV or both without external codecs. The autodesk inferno , smoke and flame (on linux and irix) are the best for their real time power but the prices are high . IFX Piranha (linux) is cheaper and very effecient . Avid DS nitris is the top level solution for windows but is tightly linked with it's hardware (no way to use a footage without redigitizing it using it's specific hardware) . Autodesk lustre is another windows solution for color correction and grading but has few tools for editing . All these solutions cost from 50 to 400 K . Cineform should come with a new raw codec wich can be used for resolutions exceeding the 2K (patent pending) . Adobe premiere pro or Sony vegas with cineform codec are among the low cost editing solutions for 2K , however care must be taken in the editing steps to avoid detail loss after a certain number of generation effects (about 15) . Other solution may exists but these are the most known . Among all the expensive solutions the linux piranha is the most hardware independant .

2) With HD : The list is big but Canopus edius with it's HQ codec (a variable interactive codec) is one of the fastest and affordable . The software can import easily many footage formats and flavours . While Avid solutions are more expensive and hardware dependant . The avid codecs are not interactive and variable .

3) compositing : After effects with the dynamic link (production studio only) allow many compositing effects from the premiere pro timeline without rendering , wich is the affordable solution for both editing and compositing with cineform codec . Otherwise the expensive 2K/4K can do the job with uncompressed 4:4:4:4 data . If the red codec can be used with the midrange compositing softwares -combustion , shake , digital fusion , nuke, and others- that will be a real revolution .

Regards .

[Gavin Greenwalt]

... or you can edit in any NLE. Avid, FCP, Premiere, Windows Movie Maker etc.. and conform in any resolution independent render engine later...such as Fusion, Combustion, Shake, Nuke, AE etc..

[Sanjin Jukic]

Hi ,

Here are some NLE and compositing software choice for the RED one :

1) With 2 and 4 K : The best is to use NLE that can handle uncompressed 4:4:4 RGB , YUV or both without external codecs. The autodesk inferno , smoke and flame (on linux and irix) are the best for their real time power but the prices are high . IFX Piranha (linux) is cheaper and very effecient . Avid DS nitris is the top level solution for windows but is tightly linked with it's hardware (no way to use a footage without redigitizing it using it's specific hardware) . Autodesk lustre is another windows solution for color correction and grading but has few tools for editing . All these solutions cost from 50 to 400 K . Cineform should come with a new raw codec wich can be used for resolutions exceeding the 2K (patent pending) . Adobe premiere pro or Sony vegas with cineform codec are among the low cost editing solutions for 2K , however care must be taken in the editing steps to avoid detail loss after a certain number of generation effects (about 15) . Other solution may exists but these are the most known . Among all the expensive solutions the linux piranha is the most hardware independant .

2) With HD : The list is big but Canopus edius with it's HQ codec (a variable interactive codec) is one of the fastest and affordable . The software can import easily many footage formats and flavours . While Avid solutions are more expensive and hardware dependant . The avid codecs are not interactive and variable .

3) compositing : After effects with the dynamic link (production studio only) allow many compositing effects from the premiere pro timeline without rendering , wich is the affordable solution for both editing and compositing with cineform codec . Otherwise the expensive 2K/4K can do the job with uncompressed 4:4:4:4 data . If the red codec can be used with the midrange compositing softwares -combustion , shake , digital fusion , nuke, and others- that will be a real revolution .

Regards .

Sorry about a joke but it looks like a talk of PC guy in the new Apple adds>>LINK. And of course another solution for all yours NLE confusions is Final Cut Studio 6. It is coming up and will be presented together with the RED 4k>2K>HD workflow at the RED BOOT+APPLE BOOT at NAB 2007.

[starman]

There is another less known nle that can handle 4k plus a lot of other goodies i use it for dv but its capable of hd 4k

its called extreme and it costs less than $2k

http://www.cinegy.com/CMS/index.php?products_extreme

starman

[Bruce Allen]

Wlaroussi, are you talking about onlining / finishing or creative editing? What is your project?

Realistically, most creative editing is done in an Avid or sometimes Final Cut Pro. Maybe you could swing it with Premiere too. But if you're going to be doing something big (eg with multiple editors working on your project at the same time, etc,) Avid should be your #1 choice. Final Cut Pro is viable for smaller projects or if you have patient and tech-savvy assistants. But then you might have to pay them more ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Bruce Allen]

Addendum: you mention that Avid DS cannot import media unless it is digitized. This is incorrect. I have supervised about 4-5 onlines on DS where we import graphics as stacks of frames. Avid would treat Red that way if you wanted - eg tell RedCine output a stack of frames. If you wanted to do an uncompressed HD online, that is one way to go. Just check with the online house that you output in the format that they are most comfortable importing ;)

There are lots of great alternatives of course - Quantel and Discreet Fire... or Final Cut Pro plus After Effects or Shake or Fusion or Combustion could do it in a pinch if you are patient and have time to burn (but no money). Similarly Premiere could work, and maybe even Vegas (with similar dollops of patience).

But when you're talking about creative editing, use the editing package that helps you work and collaborate best creatively. The important thing is how well the trim tool works, not whether it can do 4k.

Bruce

[Geoff Bailey]

Sorry, but the post above (not Bruce's, but the post that started the thread) is more confusing than helpful. The appopriate workflow depends on the project, project size and release format. Software is often the least important part of the equation.

For instance, for docs, the sheer volume of footage becomes a huge factor. Editing at even uncompressed HD rez is lunacy. Let's say 8-bit 720p and you're talking 320GB per hour. Storage cost, studio infrastructure and monitoring all become exponentially more expensive as you move from SD to HD to 2K (4k finishing is currently, I believe, not a reality).

Ironically, the workflow for 4k digital capture destined for HD or filmout, will probably (for some time) look very similar to film.

Capture (4k)
Transfer (via RedCine) to offline format
Offline Edit (SD or compressed HD)
Perform any effects work (2k)
Conform (2k)
Final Color Correct (HD or 2k)
Deliver (HD or filmout)

[Petr Dvorak]

or Quantel Pablo

[Lucas Wilson]

Addendum: you mention that Avid DS cannot import media unless it is digitized. This is incorrect. I have supervised about 4-5 onlines on DS where we import graphics as stacks of frames. ...

Hi Bruce...

Even though I didn't write the original post, I'll offer... perhaps "digitize" is the wrong word. How about "import?"

DS can "link" to files without importing them, but that workflow is painfully slow, especially with high resolutions.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

[Bruce Allen]

Hi Bruce...

Even though I didn't write the original post, I'll offer... perhaps "digitize" is the wrong word. How about "import?"

DS can "link" to files without importing them, but that workflow is painfully slow, especially with high resolutions.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

I totally agree! The original post just made it sound that you had to go in through HD-SDI or something...

I agree about the painful slowness of the import, too. Having done a ton of effects, titles, etc at full HD, 16 bit or so, I would always experiment... SGIs seemed to load quickly on the Fire systems, while the people whom I was working with on the DS seemed to want uncompressed TGAs... 8 bit only of course.

I just figured that slowness was partly because they didn't know what the hell they were doing. I've seen several operators of expensive onlining machines screw up when importing files and instead of just clicking on the first image in a sequence, they would select all 400 images in the folder and clicking "import sequences" which would have resulted in the Avid trying to import the same sequence 400 times...

Anyway, our online people never charged us for import times, I assumed that was always because they kinda knew they didn't know what they were doing.

What do you guys like best there over at Assimilate? DPX / Cineon?

Bruce
www.boacinema.com