HOPE

[Rohan B]

I'm not sure. But there is a drift away from the Red systems in the segments of cinema I care the most about, unfortunately... I'm thinking about international prestige films, but I actually guess a lot of the DPs and directors will come back to Red and the Epic, when they realize that the Alexa shot films look too much alike.

But still, I wish the Dragon makes the Epic somewhere in between the look of the current Epic and the Alexa, that was my starting point :) Anyways, I hope this has been an interesting discussion so far!

Best,
Jon M.

But why between Alexa and red epic????? Why not ahead of both epic n alexa?????

[Gunleik Groven]

I think THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2 set to release in may 2014 will be the first production to shoot on DRAGONIZED RED EPICS!!!!! Lets see.............

Shot on preproduction Epic MX...

[Rohan B]

Shot on preproduction Epic MX...

I think i clearly said "THE AMAZING SPIDER_MAN 2" the sequel to the amazing spider-man set for may 2014......

[Ryan De Franco]

On set at the moment for an international TVC... gaffer, key grip, camera op all agree, "you can't match the Alexa tonal range, the 13 stops and skin tone quality don't exist on Red," you have to think what can be done about the in-camera image. We talk about producers and post, but the on-set perception of the image is almost more important than the final.

Also, I have to say, in every example--Gunleik's old MX-Alexa tests, Mark's recent post here--the Alexa image stands out to me as more neutral, more human. Purely opinion! Everybody likes something different. When Mark posted his A/B, I immediately thought "dammit, A's gotta be Alexa."
I say this as a Red owner, happy to be making money and great work with it. I'm pretty happy that a $25,000 camera from a 5-year-old American company gets me 90% of the way towards a $90,000 camera from a 95-year-old German company.

And when I say "90% of the way," I mean 90% of the way towards a look I personally like. Directors, art directors and producers I know prefer the "punchier" look from Red to the "creamier" look from Alexa, resolution be damned.

For a while, I was convinced I needed Cooke lenses and a filter package to diffuse the image for projects needing a more "native Alexa" look. Then last week, budged forced us into my Contax primes. With the right filtration--some homemade, some classic stuff--we achieved a look that captured the milky softness of the Alexa with the sexy otherworldliness of Red. Making no money on a friend's project with incredible dancers, great production design, and the best of both cameras, best job of the year.

It's all about the color and range. I don't know how to express in scientific terms what I'm looking for, but "neutrality" comes close. Red skin tones, especially in tungsten light, still leave me wanting more. Regardless of color space and grading in post.

[Rocco Schult]

Indeed, especially skin looks pretty and easier to correct. With an Alexa you spend less time in color correction and I understand every DP going for an Alexa.
Additionally the ease of use does the rest. Every 'classic' 1st AC loves Alexa and prefers it way over [any] other electronic camera, but especially REDs, including Epic (though it became much easier on Epic/Scarlet).
The LogC footage is a dream for a colourist and post people where REDraw still and again seems stubborn. No MC6 ? Now you just came over RED footage and you beloved editorial needs to upgrade again...("Then it's all easy guys, promise!")
I still look for an REDraw to LogC-curve to ease up workflow for people used to Alexa footage.

Btw. Gunleik, the examples you posted couldn't be worse.
I'd prefer the Alexa footage everytime over the RED by your images.
The fact that both are obviously shot on the best lenses available and the RED ones are clipped, bloomy (sorry, not the Alexa, it is the RED here being bloomy, look at the halo on the around the bulb) and the skin tones looking clearly more artificial and needing correction whereas the Alexa may go off after LogC-deLUT without any further correction (e.g. for editorial).

Sure, the sensors are different, but a lot of the differences between Epic and Alexa comes from default optical filtering of many kinds on the OLPF on the Alexa, vs just "straight" OLPF on the Epic.

Them, but to a lesser degree there are the gammacurves (choice-and adjustable on the Epic) and colorscience.

STill think these two images are pretty disclosing (even though they are from R1, which is not as elegant in the top as the Epic...)

Alexa:


R1 MX


These two images tells a lot of stories about both the cameras.

The Epic runs circles around the R1, though...

Note the blooming in the Alexa image...
That is NOT a sensor issue, but a filtering issue.

These two images has madde it really easy for me to see which images comes from which camera...
Alongside a couple of other things...

But in Genereal, I agree with Mark:
I can easilly make a RED look like an Alexa. It is harder the other way around, as you cannot take off the optical filtering on the Alexa...

Both shot with Masterprimes simultaniously at same stop/ISO/WB BTW...
And LogC/RedlogFilm...

[Graeme Nattress]

A lot of people still don't know about the built-in optical filter on the Alexa.

Graeme

[Michael Lindsay]

Hi Gunleik

Thanks for posting.... But every time I see this comparison I feel the Red comes off worse. My worry is that one of the main reasons for this is the subject to bare bulb distance being so different between shots. Where there any frames that where closer.?

Thank you for sharing

Michael L

Sure, the sensors are different, but a lot of the differences between Epic and Alexa comes from default optical filtering of many kinds on the OLPF on the Alexa, vs just "straight" OLPF on the Epic.

Them, but to a lesser degree there are the gammacurves (choice-and adjustable on the Epic) and colorscience.

STill think these two images are pretty disclosing (even though they are from R1, which is not as elegant in the top as the Epic..

Alexa:


R1 MX


These two images tells a lot of stories about both the cameras.

The Epic runs circles around the R1, though...

Note the blooming in the Alexa image...
That is NOT a sensor issue, but a filtering issue.

These two images has madde it really easy for me to see which images comes from which camera...
Alongside a couple of other things...

But in Genereal, I agree with Mark:
I can easilly make a RED look like an Alexa. It is harder the other way around, as you cannot take off the optical filtering on the Alexa...

Both shot with Masterprimes simultaniously at same stop/ISO/WB BTW...
And LogC/RedlogFilm...

But if you by "sensor" mean "camera"... :)




Here's a very quick and dirty matchtest for the two (R1 MX/Alexa - The Epic is MUCH better for this...)):

http://www.gunleik.com/tests/alexmx/.../Matching.html

[Gunleik Groven]

The diference is in the filtering...

Can you see how the highlights bloom on the Alexa?


And the Epic is superior ro the R1MX IMHO

I have and have seen the two be matched very closely.
And THAT was the conclusion of the test, in my view.

One comes in unfiltered (except for OLPF) the other has a lot of optical and "other" preprocessing on as default, which I can easilly mimic.

The LUT on the monitors otoh...


Cheers!

:)

[Rob Ruffo]

Ill dig up this shot and pump the Sat up for you... I think I can spare one more color corrector node :)

Being able to select areas or bring defined areas of choice in saturation, brightness density etc, is very very easy. Don't be thinking its hard or let people tell you it is...

Like I said, it's easy to make RED images look like ALEXA images... not the other way around.

I have worked as a by the hour colorist on very expensive TVCs . I fully understand how to use Davinci. Problem is, nice-looking saturation is not that easy. You're exaggerating color flaws and deficiencies. This can look off in a hurry. It's not impossible to get Red to look as good, color wise as Alexa, but it's not as simplistic as adding a node with jacked saturation, not if you are seeking a refined result.

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

But why between Alexa and red epic????? Why not ahead of both epic n alexa?????

Ahead is not a relevant axis in a discussion about taste and look...