People Renting Their Epic For Pocket Change

[Shane Kelly]

It really bums me out when I hear that a fellow Epic owner in my area is renting out both their Epic and Scarlet full packages plus two camera operators for a full day for just $500... It really sucks...

Like most people, I've invested a lot of money in my equipment, and if I have to make my rate lower than $500 for a similar package to compete, it will take years to make my money back...

Anyone else see the same thing happen in their city?

I would imagine that it happens everywhere. Last week I got a call from a young producer asking for a rental price for my epic. I gave him a quote and he came back with: " I think I can get it elsewhere for $500". I told him that he should go with the $500 quote. I simply cannot let $50,000 worth of equipment go out the door for $500. The wear and tear on the camera used by inexperienced people is not worth it.
However, I do understand that scarlet owners want to get out there and shoot, and make some money back on their $15k. There's no harm in that. It's better to make something sometimes than having a camera sitting on a shelf. It really is simple supply and demand, there's more cameras out there so there's more people willing to give away the camera for a low price.
I bought my camera to make my work better and I charge a realistic rate for it when I dp. I do make about 25% of my yearly income on sub-rentals but I'd hate to be dependent on rentals alone.
I don't really see a solution to the lowering of rental prices other than the possibility that the lowballers will not be able to sustain such a business model. I'll not hold my breath waiting on that to happen.

[Brad Webb]

And secondly, I will never rent to them again, but that's none of your business either.

This is why me and my gear don't go out on jobs that pay ridiculously low. From my experience it always seems that the less a client is paying the more they want.

[Paul S.]

People who rent out cameras plus themselves for $500 a day are setting an industry standard. This expecially goes for Scarlet camera owners. I see these guys popping up all over the place since Scarlet was released. They buy a scarlet and then start renting it out for dirt cheap so they can make back there $15k. This is only one of the reasons why our film industry is suffering. Where we're these guys when film was still being shot??

It's also simple economics. The industry isn't suffering (quite the contrary); only those who set their stall out before technology moved on and who would ask the tide to recede. Frankly, if rental prices for a $15,000 were much higher, renters would just buy the damn thing then sell them on when they're done. And then we'd all be on here moaning about resale prices...

[Paul Hudson]

The real problem here is an over supply of cameras. Twenty years ago there were far fewer Arri SR's and BL IV's in the market. Because of this rental rates were higher and remained stable for years. Couple this with the need of film cameras to be constantly being maintained and adjusted with specialized tools you only rented from one or two rental houses in every large town.

[Andrew clemson]

Happy to report that this is the same world over. There are people with zero experience here, renting full production packages including "DIT" Epic and lenses for little more than my day rate.

A large percentage of producers don't seem to give a flying rats ass about quality, they just want cheap.

Im seriously thinking about changing careers! ;)

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

Well, as I recall and as I currently see it, the "digital revolution" basically destroyed the music industry to the point that the primary and often only source of significant income to musicians today is live performance. Recording is no longer a source of income, it's basically PR for the live performances. So destroying an industry is probably not the example one might want to use here.

This is a great thread I hope young kids can read this and change a course of action for themselves before running into a trap. But then again the way the world is going we'll all run into it.

If I don't make it to the top 85% in my field by the end of this decade I'm definitely switching careers. I've said that a few times on set with younger crew and they got shook.

It's true though. Everyday I see someone trying to be a DP since they bought whatever NEW Digital camera and trying to break in. Each year as more cameras come out it seems that more people have gear compared to the amount of work available. Now I look at content online and it looks like crap. Everything is so fast paced now we don't even have dailies to discuss the project and how to make it better for tmrw.

Content is being turned around and consumed faster than before. Godfather took years to make one movie, now they're placing bets who can put out a trilogy in the less amount of time and produce the most income, you can thank Michael Bay for proving it and putting down Lucas on his Prequel Trilogy. And which Trilogy do you think is best?

Prometheus came out weeks ago and I'm already hearing rumors for the Blu-Ray it's nuts, why go to the movies if I can see it months from release?

Production budgets have become microscopical and the gap between Indi and HighEnd is growing. I'm really curious what the average Budget is for a Hollywood film these days.

It's sad that Digital has made Cinematography much easier so the skill set is looked down upon.

A close 1 AC friend of mine joke about this DP from NYC who came down shot a feature for $500. They where doing behind the scenes bull crap interview and he said "with a 5D Mark II and a china ball your at the level of Hollywood" we couldn't stop laughing and talking mad shit about it. This was three years ago little did we know.

It's better for the average person cause they get a shot to tell their story but whats the point if everybody and their mom is taking it, through probability alone your out numbered. Where's the storytelling renaissance I heard Digital was suppose to trigger?

Is it gonna come down to independent distribution? Yet we still rely on FilmFestivals to weed out the bad harvest. And if it is a worthy film, chances are it gets bought for cheap cause the creator has no outlet for it. I spoke to the coordinator of the Austin Film Festival and she said the content being submitted has more than tripled in the past year and over 2/3 of it is horrible poop on crap content.

Tyler the Creator gives his rap for free since he knows it's worth nothing and has a net-worth of 3 Million, all through a clothing and skate label "Odd Future" and yes touring.

It sucks but the term broke artist is gonna be more common especially since making a movie is nearly impossible for indi-folk and have no way to create a substitute market to make up for it. Again Star Wars and Transformers have toys which is a killer market. What will indi-filmmakers substitute be, touring? Coppola certainly tried it but we aren't all Coppola.

My dad is a Journalist and Commercial Photographer and it's been devastating to see where the market has gone. All of his income is mainly through his Fine Art since it speaks leaps and bounds from what all these hipsters are trying to produce and push on us. Only two of his Photographer friends still shoot and the rest have moved on to find better coal to mine.

There are Photographers who are fine with low-pay jobs, they'd just rather be shooting than in an office or selling shoes. I get it, but is that where film is headed?

I guess what I'm saying if you're 18 about to graduate from High School and thinking about making movies just be ready for a reality check. Unless you really have a divine love for filmmaking and know it's what you want to grow with, for rich or for poor then say "I do"

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

This is why me and my gear don't go out on jobs that pay ridiculously low. From my experience it always seems that the less a client is paying the more they want.

LOL we all have to learn that lesson at one point, the earlier the better. lets just hope your gear makes it back alive and ready for the proper job

[Nick Morrison]

This is a great thread. I can totally relate, not as a DP. But as promo producer, and indie director/producer.

As a promo producer, I see this "revolution" all the time. Young guys and girls who...armed with Final Cut and a laptop...think they are "editors". They they arrive at the fast paced world of Broadcast Cable promos...and get ground into mince meat. Because it turns out that experience is irreplaceable, and having a solid back ground in your craft can save you when are stuck in a corner.

Case in point: most seasoned editors I work with know how to engineer all the decks we work with. When they have a problem, they can usually fix it themselves w/out having to call an engineer. At 2am when you are laying off a project, this can mean life or death. A sizeable portion of the younger editors have much less mechanical experience with decks, if any. And some of the really young editors who've only worked on web content, have never even LAID TO TAPE when they get here.

Blows my mind.

And don't get me started with DSLRs. I own two, and I've shot a lot of content with them. But we tried to treat them like real cameras, and invested heavily in glass, and other accessories. I've shot all my projects on all manual Contax glass because I wanted a consistent, classic look across everything. And we were shooting on 3 camera or more sometimes. It was a big investment. But I've met countless people who think they can light the world on fire with a Canon T3i and a kit zoom.

Technlology has leveled the playing field. It's also made everyone feel like they are an "editor" or "director" the minute they buy the tool they need to get them started. There was a recent poll NPR quoted that showed that the younger generation is much more narcissistic, and much more inclined to want to "be famous". I think there is something to that. People buy a DSLR now and instantly think of how famous it can make them. Not of the 10 years experience it will take them to really master their craft...and stand out.

But standards are changing, too. People are happy to watch crap on Youtube. And I've seen people get hired from Youtube crap to work on commercials (supported by REAL crews mind you).

But I still stand by the notion that only craft, experience and yes talent will get you to the promised land. You want to make REAL money? I mean REAL money? Know your shit.

And work with great tools, as you can slowly afford them. We know have two Scarlets. I never want to see a DSLR again. That was so 2011.

[PatrickFaith]

... Technology has leveled the playing field. It's also made everyone feel like they are an "editor" or "director" the minute they buy the tool they need to get them started. There was a recent poll NPR quoted that showed that the younger generation is much more narcissistic, and much more inclined to want to "be famous". I think there is something to that. People buy a DSLR now and instantly think of how famous it can make them. Not of the 10 years experience it will take them to really master their craft...and stand out...

bit of a rant on people some how thinking they don't have to learn when they have digital processing:

I get this all the time, people says they wish they had a job like mine ... along the lines it would be so great to learn and problem solve all day long .... blah blah blah. I simply ask, do you know python ... they say no 99% of the time ... I say all our processes are python based that I work on ... they now stare at me ... i say there are tons of jobs like mine if they understand sample theory, python, and processing streams ... i get more of a stare. i say you can go to lynda.com and learn python in a week ... they normally now say something which is basically a passive aggressive statement which is a refusal to learn.

So the problem right now is people are buying the hardware but not upgrading their brains, thus the weird economic things we are seeing.

[Christopher Mills]

Somehow, my 25 years of experience keeps on making me able to earn a living....
I do turn down jobs that are not cost effective, or that would not be profitable..
I *try* to never take rates that would make cross rental of replacement tools impossible...
I am not really willing to post rates out there for all potential customers to look at, because i do not rent out tools without my labor in most cases (exceptions are to close friends with the ability to look after my gear).

Also, in abid situation, I am evaluating the desirability of the job and the client... not just their willingness to meet a rate quote.

And yes, what I have to offer is a twofold business model..
Hiring my skills and abilities, and paying me to provide technical resources (tools)