Dragon Pricing Question

[Brian Merlen]

The program on the Red One from M to MX came with a new warranty, but that has basically no bearing on this... just is the only precedent we have to go off....

but the warranty was only on the sensor I believe...

[Jarred Land]

No, they are trying to find a way to keep people buying Epics after they announce an upgrade that will make the current version "obsolete."

Andrew, no discrespect, but your statement right there is just bat-shit crazy.

Allowing everyone the option to upgrade their current sensor , after for many who have an epic from a full value trade-in of a RED ONE, is going against making the current Epic " obsolete "..

Take a look around.. cameras are popping out faster than ever before. Companies like canon are announcing new cameras before the current ones are even shipping.. no upgrade, no trade in, no nothing.. they even change the batteries and handles every 12 months to make sure nothing in your system carries forward.

We are doing the exact opposite.. fighting against the obsolete. Modular upgrades. We make it pretty easy. Anyone that is here complaining.. you need to step back, take a deep breath, and realize that we actually are on your side.

[AndrewThomas]

Andrew, no discrespect, but your statement right there is just bat-shit crazy.

Allowing everyone the option to upgrade their current sensor , after for many who have an epic from a full value trade-in of a RED ONE, is going against making the current Epic " obsolete "..

Take a look around.. cameras are popping out faster than ever before. Companies like canon are announcing new cameras before the current ones are even shipping.. no upgrade, no trade in, no nothing.. they even change the batteries and handles every 12 months to make sure nothing in your system carries forward.

We are doing the exact opposite.. fighting against the obsolete. Modular upgrades. We make it pretty easy. Anyone that is here complaining.. you need to step back, take a deep breath, and realize that we actually are on your side.

I think you mis-understood what I meant. People hear an announcement that an upgrade to a product is coming, and their interpretation is that the current version is obsolete and they should just wait to buy the new one. Instead of having customers with cash in hand opt to wait until Epic starts shipping with Dragon, you guys are throwing in the upgrade for high $$ value orders to get people not to delay. You guys are giving an incentive to buy NOW instead of wait til later by making sure that the customer knows their camera will not be obsolete.

Basically, you are taking care of your customers and allaying any fears that they are buying "obsolete" products by upgrading their sensors at no additional cost when their turn comes up in the queue. Quite commendable.

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Ouch. Why would one ever think that the Dragon sensor will make the current sensor obsolete?

Just because a car manufacturer introduces a new model each year, is the car you bought just months before obsolete?
Any other product the same. It only goes obsolete when it no longer suits your purposes.

People hear you associating the word obsolete with this product line and someone out there with an ND filter stuck in their brain processes will hook onto it - then spread FUD. Totally unnecessary.

Is the RED One obsolete? Not by a long shot - it does some things the EPIC cannot.
That means I still use it even though I have both an EPIC and a Scarlet.
Each serves their own purpose and fills a need.

Will I upgrade my EPIC when the time comes? More than likely - However, I'm one of those that may be hit hard from sequestration if that hammer falls. If I need to wait, no problem, my camera will only be obsolete when it no longer makes extraordinarily beautiful images. With the no-charge feature builds and continual improvement in the color sciences, I suspect that may be quite a while.

As far as this program - this company continues to innovate in this industry like no other. Others have already pointed out that no other camera company offers the same.

The only wish I have is that RED comes up with an alternate formula that allows the purchases between now and then to accrue - to keep it fair for RED, a higher dollar threshold would be appropriate. They have streamlined the accounting and I can appreciate why.
I know that I am debating holding off on purchasing modules right now until I know for sure there is a second EPIC in my future this year - perhaps others are in the same boat.

[AndrewThomas]

Ask Jim why he always says "So and so introduced Camera Y, making camera X obsolete" :p

I agree with you though, hence obsolete in quotation marks. I think obsolescence is sometimes over stated. If the tool still allows one to get the job done with little compromise, it isn't obsolete IMO. I also think in the age of digital, the different sensor and electronics combination are the closest thing we have to different film stocks. There may be times where you want the MX look instead of the Dragon look!

[A. Clint Litton]

Sure, we all wish we could take part in every fantastic deal that Red will offer its customers, but as others have said already, the extra time you've no doubt had with your camera means you've likely made the $6k difference (and then some) in revenue between the time you took delivery and the time they started offering the special free-of-charge upgrade. If you bought a package the day before they started announcing things, maybe you feel a bit left out of the party, but hey, who pulls the trigger the day before you can expect a massive unveiling of future product development @ NAB?

On the brighter side, it wouldn't surprise me if Red handles the upgrades in order of delivery date, as was the case with the MX upgrade in the Red One...so your early purchase will again serve you better than those who must wait for all the other Epic owners to get their cameras sent in for the Dragon sensor upgrade...providing yet another margin of time when you'll likely experience a profit and advantage in the rental market with the latest, and certainly the greatest.

I think their decision to do this was a smart one to keep people buying into the Red family, something that helps the Red machine keep moving forward, keep revenue coming in that will at least partially go to further R&D on other great products that will enrich your experience as a camera owner. If Red benefits from this, then surely you will too in one way or another. So until Dragon rolls out, why not put aside 5-10% of each rental day, or hustle to get an extra rental day or two a month, and you'll have that $6k set aside in no time.

If I've ever felt left in the lurch by a Red announcement that I didn't qualify for, it's a fleeting sensation once I consider all the myriad ways I've already benefited from their enormous generosity, and will likely continue to benefit from in the future. We really are buying into a family. Stage 2 was a god-send in so many ways, I still find myself dizzy from time to time.

Now let's see some mobile rocket v2 development and bundles with the Dragon upgrade! It'll be the remaining element to keep things moving smoothly out in the field...

Jarred, thanks for coming into the conversation...and might I respectfully say that you guys are the ones that have been bat-shit crazy to think that this idea of putting top-notch digital cinema cameras in the hands of many for so little capital could work to such great effect. Your loyalty to your customers has not gone unnoticed with this guy, and it's one of my main speaking points when talking about the camera systems to the uninitiated. I mean, the spec sheet is one thing, but the comfort in knowing you're buying into a philosophy, however imperfect as it may be in ways, is what makes me feel like I definitely made the right decision some 5+ years ago. Keep taking the crazy pills...which from where I stand seems to be a better option than me taking the pain pills from lugging around an F65 all the live long day.

Just my humble opinion,
Clint

[Jarred Land]

Heh heh thanks Clint.. and yes we are all bat-shit crazy here at RED.

If there is one thing i can tell you all is that you are all important to us... you are part of our family and we try and do what is right for you guys.. every move we make.

Take for example the announcement I made last week that the price drop for REDMAGS was dropping weeks ahead of time. We do have adult supervision here at RED working tirelessly in the background to make sure we have a business, and they advise against that sort of thing.. as announcing that it means sales of media immediately stops until the price change. But Jim and I always take the side of the customer.. and we feel " hey, if i was a customer I would like to know that information ".. so we let you know.

But... there is a point, where we need to stay in business. We can't give everything away for free as much as we would love to. You need to pay for upgrades.. because they cost us money.

Even the stuff we do give away for free.. like Firmware upgrades and Redcine-x..... we have alot of engineers working on firmware, and alot of engineers working on REDCINE-X. These are some of the best engineers on the planet.... and they cost wheelbarrows of money to sustain.. but we keep it free because it is part of our philosophy.

It's easy to take advantage of things like this.. and for generosity to become expected rather than a gift. It is human nature. We all are guilty of taking advantage of things in our life that we shouldn't. Sometimes everyone just needs to take a deep breath.. look at the landscape.. look at what we have done and continue to try to do for this industry and hopefully with that we can earn a bit of trust.

[Gary Ploj]

Take for example the announcement I made last week that the price drop for REDMAGS was dropping weeks ahead of time. We do have adult supervision here at RED working tirelessly in the background to make sure we have a business, and they advise against that sort of thing.. as announcing that it means sales of media immediately stops until the price change. But Jim and I always take the side of the customer.. and we feel " hey, if i was a customer I would like to know that information ".. so we let you know.

...and we thank you both

[conrad gaunt]

poof..

[AndrewThomas]

I'm going to guess that post won't be very well received ;)