Click here to go to the first RED TEAM post in this thread.   Thread: Life after Red

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  #11  
    Unfortunately written by someone who neither understands resolution nor aliasing. I'm getting tired now of such articles that lacks even the most basic of technical fact checking.

    " Also when you use a Bayer pattern and you de-bayer in the end your looking at approx half of the true resolution you started with. Maybe its Red’s goal to double up to 8K so in the end you have a true 4K output to work with? The only problem with that is that if you increase resolution you also increase moire opportunity. Due to that they end up putting in a stronger filter (low pass filter) on the sensor that basically softens the image. Its a never ending battle. Its best to just avoid Bayer all together which I think is what most companies are focusing on. Canon C500, Sony F65 both do not use a standard Bayer pattern and therefore can retain their native resolution. The Arri Alexa starts with a 3.5K sensor knowing that the De-Bayer will yield a nice 2K/1080P output. 4K versions of cameras coming out will have a goal of Bayer free 4K output with a 1080p output option.

    "

    1) Alexa isn't 3.5k starting point, it's 2880 across for making 1080p. (just as the F65 isn't 20mp it's 17.7mp)
    2) 1) above contradicts his claim that you need 2x the resolution on a Bayer pattern (2280/1920 = 1.5)
    3) debayering actually has minimal effect on measured resolution, much less than the optical low pass filter to avoid the worst of aliasing, and for example on Epic / MX I've measured about 80% of the linear resolution of the sensor, a figure in excess of his 50% figure which is woefully inaccurate. And OLPFs are necessary for all camera types, be they a colour filter array like Bayer, or 3chip or Foveon.
    4) increasing sensor resolution makes moire and aliasing harder, not easier! The better the camera is at responding to fine detail, the better it will be able to avoid aliasing in a scene.
    5) No, we didn't put in a stronger OLPF. Higher resolution without changing pixel size means the OLPF remains constant. Higher resolution while making the pixels smaller means weaker OLPF is needed, not stronger.
    6) no, it's not a never-ending battle.
    7) C500 is utterly standard bayer pattern.
    8) F65 is utterly standard bayer rotated by 45 degrees, and for an 8k camera has only a fraction of the pixels it needs as it only has enough for about 5.6k not 8k.


    Graeme
    Last edited by Graeme Nattress; 07-10-2012 at 06:51 AM.
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  2. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Ou View Post
    Life after RED? I seem to recall life before RED. . . I like life after RED much better! :)
    Indeed.
     

  3. #13  
    Senior Member Andrew clemson's Avatar
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    Remember Stone Cold Steve Austin? Remember that slogan they used to put all over his merchandise?

    "Austin 3:16, Cause Stone Cold said so"

    You should totally print Nattress 3:16 shirts.

    Ok, maybe that was a little fanboy-ish.
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  4. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew clemson View Post
    Remember Stone Cold Steve Austin? Remember that slogan they used to put all over his merchandise?

    "Austin 3:16, Cause Stone Cold said so"

    You should totally print Nattress 3:16 shirts.

    Ok, maybe that was a little fanboy-ish.
    And in a hint of irony, Steve not only bears a passing resemblance to Jim but just about every project he does these days is shot on RED. Personally, I think it would be great to have some t-shirts that say RED COLOR SCIENCE: NATTRESS OXIDE or something sillyish like that.
     

  5. #15  
    Senior Member Mark Phelan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L. Langer View Post
    RED COLOR SCIENCE: NATTRESS OXIDE
    I like it!
     

  6. #16  
    Senior Member Kemalettin Sert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graeme Nattress View Post
    8) F65 is utterly standard bayer rotated by 45 degrees, and for an 8k camera has only a fraction of the pixels it needs as it only has enough for about 5.6k not 8k.


    Graeme
    so F65 has more K's than Epic right? also more dynanic range...
     

  7. #17  
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    This guy's out of touch ; and so are his writing skills, with his misspellings and solecisms.. BTW, he meant "to the detriment of..." not determent of..
     

  8.   Click here to go to the next RED TEAM post in this thread.
  #18  
    F65 appears quite aliasy, but has enough pixels for about 5.6k (not the 8k claimed). If DR is more it wasn't significantly more in that perhaps the darkest stops had a smidgen less noise, but I couldn't see any more real stops. But like a lot of the higher end cameras we see these days, it's not in a practical form-factor which makes it utterly unusable for many tasks.

    Graeme
    www.red.com - 6k Digital Cinema Camera
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  9. #19  
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    I would like to speak up for Red. I've never been happier dealing with an AV-company, and I've never been more amazed by any AV-product!

    I also feel very loyal to Red as a phenomenon, as they propelled and finally gave us real digital cinema acquisition. The Red leader is probably eccentric, but who are not who actually makes things change?

    There is no need for entrepreneurs to hide under a rock, I like that the guy is so open and frank on these forums.People who don't appreciate it, are not appreciating real innovators.

    I was just at an Apple repair center, and this famous quote covered one of the walls - it always makes me happy:

    Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes... the ones who see things differently -- they're not fond of rules... You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can't do is ignore them because they change things... they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.
     

  10. #20  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    From the article....

    You can shoot 4K for a web video if you want to but 1080p does a fine job.
    Any of us who shoot or intend to shoot for theatrical release should be very happy that Red makes digital motion picture cameras and not web cameras.

    It's a strange article overall. The idea that 4k+ .R3Ds take up more space than more compressed 1080p files.... Shocker.

    I don't think Red's focus has ever been to out sale any of the "big 3" camera companies. It was always marketed as film alternative.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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