3K...

[Thor Wixom]

To me Red is about what I can do... not what I can't.

-Thor

[Dj Joofa]

nwfilmclub,

Great paper I must say. Thanks again for posting. The author used the central figure of contrast sensitivity of 30 cycles per degree. Several authors have suggested that at the fovea of human eye there are 120 photoreceptors per degree and hence, a figure of 60 cycles per degree is typically quoted, for e.g., see Wendal, et. al.

Any comments on this discrepancy?

[Adrian T.]

Maybe my english wasn´t that clear but I meant that statement considering the idea that the bigger the capture area size (negative, chip, etc) the better the downconversion (or the scan for DI) will look.

I believe that nobody will notice a difference in quality when your target resolution is 2K or 1080P unless they can compare directly.

When you´re renting a very expensive wide angle lens, or a zoom for that matter and you can´t achieve its widest because of the camera, well then it´s a problem. Go check the price difference between a 14mm and a 16mm S4 or Ultraprime. Or tell the Ultraprime 8R owners that it´s not of a big deal after they payed over 20K por a lens. Not to mention the 24-290 Optimo´s owners.

These are very rare circumstances where you do such a very wide angle shot with more than 50 fps. But when they come up, just rent a matching wide angle lens. Nobody says you need to own it.

And for all "normal" shots at 50 fps or less go with 4K.

Maybe for you it is the way to go. Perhaps some others don´t want to work on the same projects with two different resolutions and really care about the FOV.

I see no practical reason for not going with several resolutions within the same project.

[Rodrigo Lizana]

These are very rare circumstances where you do such a very wide angle shot with more than 50 fps. But when they come up, just rent a matching wide angle lens. Nobody says you need to own it.

When you are a rental house you need to own things. Actually, in TV commercials (car spots, extreme sports related spots and those with speed ramps) it is very common to rent the 435 with wideangle lenses for slowmotion shots. Again I don´t want to be annoying on this subject but I cannot say it does not matter.
Sure there´re many ways to work around things, I´m just saying that from a rental house point of view, it´s way better when you´re able to offer things without the "yes...but". No client paying for an expensive wideangle lens is going to smile when you tell him "sorry but in order to get what you want you need to go a little bit wider and pay a little bit extra (or a lot)".

And for all "normal" shots at 50 fps or less go with 4K.

Correct me if I´m wrong but I thought the max frame rate available with 35mm FOV (4K) to CF was 30fps ?

I see no practical reason for not going with several resolutions within the same project.

When we rented Varicams and they worked along with F900´s, post houses always complained about the different formats and the extra work involved in matching the two. And when the post house cryies it is usually the client who´s going to pay for that tears.

Anyway, Big Lebowski, I understand what you´re standing up for and I too see Red One as great camera, it´s just that I wish for something I don´t want to stop wishing for. That´s all. Sometimes it´s hard to sound friendly all the time (or that you´re not criticizing) when you´ve to write in other lenguage.

BTW, I love the "Dude" film. Wondering if there´s a WA slowmo shot on that movie...:-)

[Jason Wingrove]

From Jim "If you shoot 4K, you have IMMEDIATE 2K QT files. No internal camera scaling necessary. YOU GET 2K SCALED AUTOMATICALLY AND INSTANTLY NOW"

could someone explain this one please as at present, because at 4K 16:9 there are no Qt proxies generated right? so how can my editor access immediate 2k QT files? at present the proxy files are what we have been working with in the avid?
thanks
j

[Adrian T.]

When you are a rental house you need to own things. Actually, in TV commercials (car spots, extreme sports related spots and those with speed ramps) it is very common to rent the 435 with wideangle lenses for slowmotion shots. Again I don´t want to be annoying on this subject but I cannot say it does not matter.
Sure there´re many ways to work around things, I´m just saying that from a rental house point of view, it´s way better when you´re able to offer things without the "yes...but". No client paying for an expensive wideangle lens is going to smile when you tell him "sorry but in order to get what you want you need to go a little bit wider and pay a little bit extra (or a lot)".

Didn't know that you're a rental house. But then you should be happy that people need to rent expensive glass. It's up to the customer what he wants to shoot on. And if he chooses RED and wants higher framerates, then he needs wide angle lenses. And there's nothing YOU should be sorry for. It's just the way it is.

Correct me if I´m wrong but I thought the max frame rate available with 35mm FOV (4K) to CF was 30fps ?

Sorry, you're right, typo.

Anyway, Big Lebowski, I understand what you´re standing up for and I too see Red One as great camera, it´s just that I wish for something I don´t want to stop wishing for. That´s all.

I understand you completely. Everybody would be happy if we could record 4k at 120 fps, even me. I only wanted to point out that the current 3K solution is a great interim solution until RED finds a way to have higher framerates at 4K.

BTW, I love the "Dude" film. Wondering if there´s a WA slowmo shot on that movie...:-)

[conrad gaunt]

Well, except for retaining field of view, relative depth of focus, and improved imade due to overampling.

But as far as speed advantages go, yes it will not change anything.

Mitch Gross
Abel Cine Tech

I guess if we eventually get 4k 60fps we can downsample ourselves to improve image quality (and use a higher quality resample function too, as it won`t need to be realtime as the camera records). I suspect 4k->3k resampling would be slightly more complex than going 4k->2k, even if the sensor was faster.

I agree though, my Canon 10D (3072x2048 lossless raw files) struggles to deal with things such as telephone wires across roads (which are smaller than a single pixel), and produces nasty jaggies. The only solution is to record the discrete samples (pixels) at a higher sample rate (resolution) and then downsample the image (effectively pixel phasing the image) or by throwing data away using some kind of lowpass filter (yuk!). Its basic sampling theory. I`m still waiting for 4k @ 60fps, but its a great additional option.

[conrad gaunt]

4K 30 / 3K 60 / 2K should be 120 (With optical RAW port) if not, it should be 100

Actually it has been stated that 60fps @ 4k is the maximum sensor speed, which is why Red originally advertised this. My fingers are still crossed.

[conrad gaunt]

if redcode is 10:1 compression over RAW then 2k resolution at 28 would give us 2.5:1 compression at that resolution. course you guy said early on the difference between RAW and REDCODE RAW is impossible to see

Ive seen some nasty stuff going on in the blue channel in some DPXs I`ve examined (although improved with Graeme` Redcine noise reduction option). From a SFX point of view, higher data rates can have real benefits, but we`re all getting greedy on this forum, including myself.

[conrad gaunt]

In response to those calling for a KISS methodology; have you dipped into the arcane engineering menus of a Varicam or CineAlta necessary to color these cameras? The RED One is incredibly simple compared to these kludged ENG cameras. (I don't know enough about SI-2K, Viper, etc. to compare them.)

Jim and the RED team: 3K! Damn! Thank you. (Time to update the workflow diagram again.)

Michael

SI-2K is a lovely camera. Bayer sensor, Cineform codec (also wavelet) is mature, 100mb/s. 2k images lovely (you can download sample footage and codec). Dynamic range great. More evolved in general than Red One, but at 2k only. Workflows are complete and working (avi and quicktime), LOOK files, everything rocks from what I`ve seen, and also a nice responsive company. I`ve gone with Red for the ride (and a slightly lower price), but it was close for me, as resolution isn`t everything. Think of it as a 2k version of Red (only 72fps, but with fully fledged out the box workflow bundles available).
I`ve not heard of anything planned for Red that the SI-2K doesn`t already do in terms of workflows, but then Silicon Imaging have outsourced these workflow things to cineform from what I can tell, and they definately do it well, but then Red are doing a stirling job too, although they`re a little behind in some areas, but thats hardly surprising due to the high speed development of the camera and software and the fact they`re newer to the game. Also there`s a portable SI camera, without a body that records directly to a computer or laptop. Thats my take anyway, but you probably new all this.

edit, make that nearer 30mb/s