Premiere CS6 and REDCINE X

[Cory Petkovsek]

Everything in the Post group are calculated post production effects provided only by redcine-x. Although you can duplicate them with other tools. Alchemy is a nice curve preset. Clarity is basically unsharpen mask. Skin is probably something similar in the negative direction. Or you can export the footage from RCX after these effects are applied then continue your grade in CS6.

[Anderson Boyd]

With RedCine-X v.15 round tripping now works great with Premiere Pro CS6. A huge help.

I remember hearing something about Alchemy eventually being a plugin, whether paid or not. Will CS6 ever support Alchemy R3D metadata?

Loving where things are heading, media management is getting better and better.

[Anderson Boyd]

Everything in the Post group are calculated post production effects provided only by redcine-x. Although you can duplicate them with other tools. Alchemy is a nice curve preset. Clarity is basically unsharpen mask. Skin is probably something similar in the negative direction. Or you can export the footage from RCX after these effects are applied then continue your grade in CS6.

I don't believe this is correct. Jim touted Alchemy when first released as a RED proprietary sort of contrast setting, cooked up by Graeme. Probably some kind of algorithmic interplay that results in a more filmic contrast that's less susceptible change/being muddied once deep into grading. Whatever the case, most definitely not easy to user replicate.

[PatrickFaith]

With RedCine-X v.15 round tripping now works great with Premiere Pro CS6. A huge help.

I have to do a lot of complex composites in AE ( R3D matching to vfx and sfx while doing a lot of slight color adjustments) exactly how do I "round trip" using this new v15 version so i can use alchemy functions in AE CS6 without having a DI for my R3D?

[Anderson Boyd]

As far as I know Alchemy isn't yet supported in CS6. In the past, at least for me, it was a bit buggy and difficult to get a RCX sequence/XML back into Premiere Pro. Now it seems to work flawlessly.

If you can work without Alchemy for now I'd recommend XML/EDL'ing over to RCX and using it's awesomeness. Premiere Pro's Source Settings grade functions didn't quite do it for me, and the -Save RMD in RCX and Reload RMD in Premiere- way was cumbersome and limiting.

RCX continues to shape nicely. I think RCX has a future as a premium finishing environment if speed and motion controls are ever introduced into the mix.

[Cory Petkovsek]

I don't believe this is correct. Jim touted Alchemy when first released as a RED proprietary sort of contrast setting, cooked up by Graeme. Probably some kind of algorithmic interplay that results in a more filmic contrast that's less susceptible change/being muddied once deep into grading. Whatever the case, most definitely not easy to user replicate.

You said I wasn't correct then said the same thing I did. Curve is the professional method of applying contrast settings. RED has produced a nice curve preset that is variably applicable.

I have to do a lot of complex composites in AE ( R3D matching to vfx and sfx while doing a lot of slight color adjustments) exactly how do I "round trip" using this new v15 version so i can use alchemy functions in AE CS6 without having a DI for my R3D?

This thread is about Premiere.

As I wrote before roundtripping is not complete yet. Going from AE to RCX for alchemy is a lot of work just for a nice curve. Anyway, here's how I would do it. First you must have received an edit, right? Did you get an AAF, FCPXML, FCP, EDL, or PPro Project? I would start there and ideally convert it to an fcpxml for import into RCX.

However if you have only the AEP, then I would export as a PPro project. Then open in PPro and export as FCPXML. Then import RCX, grade w/ alchemy, and export all clips as intermediates.
Next, you can import those intermediates to the project panel, and replace them one at a time in AE on the timeline.
Or if you used a quicktime intermediate (prores/dnxhd), you could generate an FCPXML as well (on the RCX template options, not File/Export). That xml could then be reimported to AE via automatic duck/Pro Import, which should be linked to the intermediates. Then you'll have most of your comp ready to go with alchemy on the intermediates.

The simpler workflow is to simply grade the raw clips w/ alchemy and export them in whole as intermediates. Then replace the whole clips in AE in the project panel. The downside to this is you're using a lot more disk space and transcoding time. The above workflow will transcode only the exact in/out points used, but is clearly more complicated.



Edit - correcting myself:

Alchemy is a nice curve preset. Clarity is basically unsharpen mask. Skin is probably something similar in the negative direction.

Actually looking at it again, Skin is not unsharp mask, it is basically a bloom or diffusion effect. There are similar effects to all of these available in other post tools; some have fancy and trademarked names with presets. I gave the basic names that require a little more knowledge to use rather than using presets.

Because roundtripping is not complete with RCX, it's not worth it to me to do the import/export steps needed just for the alchemy group when the effects can be duplicated in my finishing app. If I really wanted the RCX post looks, I'd start my grade in RCX and export intermediates to bake in the look.

Cory

[Will Keir]

With RedCine-X v.15 round tripping now works great with Premiere Pro CS6. A huge help.

Hi Anderson.

For those of us just getting started with round tripping RCX and CS6, would you mind giving us a few details on your method?

[PatrickFaith]

As I wrote before roundtripping is not complete yet. Going from AE to RCX for alchemy is a lot of work just for a nice curve. Anyway, here's how I would do it. First you must have received an edit, right? Did you get an AAF, FCPXML, FCP, EDL, or PPro Project? I would start there and ideally convert it to an fcpxml for import into RCX.

However if you have only the AEP, then I would export as a PPro project. Then open in PPro and export as FCPXML. Then import RCX, grade w/ alchemy, and export all clips as intermediates.
Next, you can import those intermediates to the project panel, and replace them one at a time in AE on the timeline.
Or if you used a quicktime intermediate (prores/dnxhd), you could generate an FCPXML as well (on the RCX template options, not File/Export). That xml could then be reimported to AE via automatic duck/Pro Import, which should be linked to the intermediates. Then you'll have most of your comp ready to go with alchemy on the intermediates.

The simpler workflow is to simply grade the raw clips w/ alchemy and export them in whole as intermediates. Then replace the whole clips in AE in the project panel. The downside to this is you're using a lot more disk space and transcoding time. The above workflow will transcode only the exact in/out points used, but is clearly more complicated.

Cory

Thanks Cory ... how about this round trip work flow between premiere->redcine->ae->premiere ... does it make sense as a roundtrip with vfx:
1) Premiere - rough cut a scene from all my footage for that scen, output scene in EDL format (i often have around 200gig to 500 gigabyte per scene of all my shots)
2) redcine-x load using the EDL, do basic color correction, then ouput using the "TRIM" (i now have a few gigabytes of trimed r3d for the scene, with a bunch of trim'ed r3d's )
3) AE, copy the "TRIM" r3d's into a ae project (into different composites), do the magic with other vfx composites, then output the scene in dpx
4)premiere, start new project, load the dpx into the project as a clip.

[note ... can't use alchemy with this flow ... but it drastically reduces how much disk i'm using per scene, and allows me to play in redcine after my rough cut, speeds up composite flow, etc ... ]

[Cory Petkovsek]

In general when importing or exporting, I would go with fcpxml as your mechanism because I feel there are more options, but I suppose whichever works.

Next, if this workflow is already working for you, then perhaps there is no reason to change it; especially mid project.

As to what I think about it, it doesn't seem very efficient.
1) Premiere rough cut, editing native R3Ds. Sounds good.

2) Import RCX for two reasons:
A) To do basic color. You can do this in premiere with the RED SDK. Why bother? RCX doesn't provide any additional benefit here.
B) To export trimmed R3Ds. That sounds like redundant disk usage. Unless you are going to delete the original R3Ds; I'm not sure how I feel about that. The only reason I see to export trimmed R3Ds would be if you were packaging off a scene to send it to a remote VFX artist and didn't want to provide the full R3D clip due to size. In this case you'd be keeping the original footage, plus the trimmed R3Ds. However I think its more typical to send VFX something a little more baked like a dpx or tiff sequence, rather than an R3D, unless its your colorist.

3) AE - You missed explaining how you get into AE from here. AE doesn't import EDLs. Are you dropping in the trimmed R3Ds? So if a scene has 10 shots, you drop in just the 10 trimmed R3Ds, make 10 comps, do vfx on each, then export each as a DPX sequence? I guess that works. I wouldn't want to go into AE without a project file that gives me one comp with each shot as a different layer so I have the entire scene laid out as one comp in the proper order. Thus I could watch the whole scene in entirety. Doesn't that make sense to ensure continuity of color and vfx?

4) Back to Premiere - create a new project and dump the DPX sequences back in. Where is your edit? Are you going to recreate the edit from scratch? No, no, no, no, no. Well, you wouldn't on a project I was managing. Just say no to redundancy.

Let's start with your objectives:
- Color somewhere that makes sense
- Edit in premiere
- VFX in AE
- Minimize excess disk space

I suggest one of these options. These are 4k workflows. You can have your sequences and comps at HD, 2k, 4k, 5k or whatever.

Primary:
1) Edit native R3Ds in premiere
2) Perform ugly VFX in premiere so you get the idea
3 Optional) Do a basic color pass in premiere (using RED color science, NOT premiere color tools)
4) Finish the fine cut and lock the edit; no more changes
5) Import the project file into AE. You get one comp, with each shot on its own layer.
6) Do final VFX in AE; If you really need to edit, do so in AE, but beware of messing with your sound (see 8)
7) Color each shot using both RED color science, and then AE color tools
8) Finalize audio in premiere and sound app, import sound mix into AE
9) Render final out of AE

No transcodes, no intermediates, no recreating edits. This requires you commit to your edit before starting vfx, or finishing color; a typical workflow. RCX is unnecessary, though you could start with a basic color pass there and save the RMDs before going into premiere.

Alternate:
1) Edit native R3Ds in premiere.
2) Right-click each clip in premiere and replace with AE composition.*
3) In AE on that clip perform VFX and color as needed.
4) Finalize edit, color and vfx more or less simultaneously.
6) Roundtrip to sound app for final mix.
5) Render final out of premiere.

This allows you to start vfx and color before you've finished the edit. This will likely require a beefy system because of the abuse you'll put the dynamic link manager through. If you keep the AE file open, all the new comps will go into the same file. Again RCX is unnecessary.

* You can also limit these compositions just to the clips that need VFX. For color, you could work solely with the RED Color science, and the premiere tools just to keep the use of dynamic link manager down.

Also if DLM is too slow, you could export intensive clips as an intermediate from AE and import them over your premiere timeline clip; or replace it with your vfx intermediate.

Finally, if you really want to trim your clips and delete the original footage, then I would start with:
1) Premiere - Edit rough; Export FCPXML
2) RCX Import FCPXML; You should have the whole timeline
3) RCX export Trim R3Ds
4) RCX Possibly export an FCPXML - I'd have to test to see if this is linked to the trimmed R3Ds
5) Premiere Import FCPXML to see if timeline is linked to trimmed R3Ds instead of original. If so, replace the video tracks with this new timeline (keep the old audio tracks). If not, replace each shot with the trimmed R3Ds manually.
You now have a rough cut timeline in premiere with trimmed R3Ds. Now you can delete your original footage. Though I still don't think it's a good idea.
6) Continue on the primary or alternate track above.

[PatrickFaith]

WOW >>> WOW >>> WOW ... Mucho thanks Cory ... learning & testing the flow you outlined today. (btw ... for personal projects I do everything, for non-personal all this stuff is in the production companies so i don't normally get to see the "exact" steps ).


[edit] hmmm ... this software is toyish.

I was involved in the old days with the lisp metadata format moving to xml ... and these tools are "toyish" in that they have poor documentation, bad user interfaces for the xml ... and the command line does not even use XML?

There needs to be a linux version of redcine-x commandline with full xml based control/workflow.