Set up time vs a 7D

[Lars Wikstrom]

I am on the fence about buying a Red camera and thought I would check with some Red owners. Many years ago I was excited about the Red One coming out but it was always was getting delayed. Then the Canon cameras swept across the scene and I bit. Past few years now I have been very happy with my 7D shooting local commercials for mom and pop shops.

But with the 7D I am finding color grading difficult. If I push the footage to far it falls apart. But I really like the fast paced production. I can be set up and rolling in 10 minutes and I normally shoot a restaurant in 2+ hours.

I am worried that if I invest in a RED camera there will be a trade off of speed vs. quality. With Red workflow I now get the quality I need to color correct. But instead of a 2 hour shoot and 4 hour edit with my 7D it is now a 6 hour shoot and a 12 edit with Red footage conversion and extra set up, location changes in a restaurant and break down of gear( that is a guess only about the time).

So if anyone has gone from HDSLR production to a RED workflow can you give me a feel for the trade offs?

Thanks!

[Stephen Mick]

I've shot extensively with both the Epic and the Canons (and a bunch of other stuff). The workflow doesn't have to be any more complex, to be honest. It just depends on what you want to do and how you prefer to do it.

For example, I used to transcode DSLR footage to ProRes or DNxHD for editing and final color work. So the "time" (as it were) was front-loaded. That footage cuts and colors easily in just about any application you might use. Now, with RED, the "time" is more in the back-end. I can edit with the native R3D files in Premiere, send an EDL to SpeedGrade to do final color, and then the only wait is on the output at the very end. I can certainly do some preliminary color work in REDCINE-X before editing, if I want to.

Post with RED is only as complex as you make it.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I find RED setup faster than Canon. With Canon I have to spend a lot longer running through menus making sure it didn't turn on an crap like sharpening or color. And then changing framerate, shutter speed, exposure etc is frustrating and unpredictable. "Ok I'm on "M" but I set the shutter to 50... but it seems to opening the aperture anyway on its own..."

You also don't get histograms etc. Even after running through the menus I still never feel at all confident that it's recording what I want. With RED I just pull it out of the bag. Pop it on a tripod and can immediately see what everything is set to. No uncertainty.

[Terry VerHaar]

I can't help but note that if the speed of your workflow is very important, and you are getting your needs met, and the quality of the DSLR is meeting your needs, why change? Unless you have a burning desire to spend $15 - 40K or more, why buy a RED? Don't get me wrong, I love my Scarlet and would never permanently go back to any of the cameras I previously shot, but this just doesn't seem like the right question to ask when contemplating the move. If you are looking to "up your game" then DO buy a RED; the workflow will take care of itself.

[Phil Holland]

I've done "extensive" work with 5D Mark II and 7D. I've also be shooting with Red for a good while now. The only honest trade off for me is that the Red Epic/Scarlet is a bit larger and heavier and final export takes a bit longer. However, I'm using Adobe Premiere Pro CS6 and I never have to do any transcoding. Setup time will vary depending on if you keep your camera in a shooting ready state.

I have a color correction/grading background. The gains by shooting in a deeper bit depth, raw format, and 4k+ are much more important important to me.

That said, the price for a full shooting package is wildly different than DSLRs. Everything is a bit more expensive on this side of the fence. From hard drives to recording media. Again though, the increased image quality is well worth the trade offs on that front for me.

The material I shoot is important to me. I haven't shot 1080p anything this year at all.

[Nick Morrison]

I don't find much difference in setup time. The Scarlet is not hugely larger than a Canon DSLR, so on set I don't find it a huge difference.

And I find the post process equally involved. With DSLRs, I would convert the H264 quicktimes to Pro Res or DNX Quicktimes. And with RED you have to transcode as well.

But the upside in quality is so huge that it's almost like stepping into a time machine.

[Christopher Barrett]

I get the impression that Lars is asking about build time on set. That's totally up to you, the accessories you use and how you want to pack the camera. I can set up my Epic so that it comes out of the case needing only a lens. Even if I have the thing stripped down, I can have it built in under 5 minutes.

This has never been an issue for me, but then I'm usually ready to go before much of the lighting is in place.

Cheers,
CB

[Jon Carr]

shoot within your budget, and workflow...

[PatrickFaith]

I have both setups ... pro's of the 7d/5d is as long as you don't have all the "shit" on it ... it doesn't look like a film camera ... so you can film just about anywhere (even my zeiss compact .2 doesn't make it look to out of the normal, and i can do a lot of shooting without someone bugging me). Second I pull out my RED stuff ... get ready for some crowd control, I can't even get natural "crowd" shots with the red.

The negative of setup time on the 5d/7d is the second i really have all my junk ... i.e. follow focus, sound, larger lenses ... I just seem to have crap everywhere on my canon setup, and the canon setup for sure takes longer (as there aren't really any nice mount points).

So if your shooting a Naked 5d/7d ... it's really hard to beat the setup time of canon, if you have a bunch of vdslr accessories , red is faster. RED is WAY faster when you start getting the higher end accesories (i.e. timecode, remote focus, PL, anamorphic, etc ...).

Another setup time difference on the red vs canon is with jibs/sliders. RED does weigh more, and you have a tendency to buy the cinema pl glass with RED(not required ... but is something very tempting that increases your camera weight, and if u got pl glass you have a nice matte box ... etc), so you need bigger jibs and stuff - which can drastically add to setup time. [you can shoot light on the red ... it's just a test of self control because you can get so many cool things for RED]

[Mike P.]

It's a trap. Unless you're a hired gun or plan on renting or getting jobs because of 4k or shooting features (your own or others'... but that'd make you a hired gun), I'd argue against switching given the types of projects you do.

Mic for scratch audio, display, batteries that last 1-2 hours, a way to control the camera, cheap/light tripods, media that records for hours, stupidly light weight, off the shelf accessories/replacements, etc. are inherently built-in to your DSLR... None are built-in to your RED. You can't just grab the camera body/lens and shoot; you actually need to kit out your set up depending on the production.

I wouldn't say it takes more time, but you're going to be paying for things (support, arms, rigging, etc.) you'd never even thought about with a DSLR. If you don't buy the kit, you're set up will be cumbersome on location/set, which will definitely slow you down. You can't just say, "Screw it. I'll just use the onboard xxxxxx" because there is nothing onboard. So, say, for example, you get to your location, you go to pull out your mic, and realize that your only XLR cable is shredded or you forgot your mic entirely; with a DSLR, you'd just use onboard and ADR it later. With a Scarlet, you'd basically be boned... sure you'd ADR it later, but without reference audio it's so much harder to match (both timing and tonality).

That's not really good example, but hopefully you get my meaning. Basically you'd need to pay quite a lot to build your rig to be as convenient/comfortable (and hence as fast) as your DSLR... And all for something (RAW and 4k) that your clients most likely will not be paying you extra for.