Color Space confusion with the Scarlet and in General

[Ryan Emanuel]

I got a few questions, any constructive response is really appreciated. I keep thinking in circles. 1. So you have the options of recording RedlogFilm and Red Gammas, but how do you even see true red gamma spaces on a Rec 709 calibrated monitor? 2. From what I have read, noise only happens when you lift darks too much passed where they are supposed to be mapped by your iso selection. How are you guys creating your luts to properly map the dynamic range so you know your bounds in the darks. Is the Arri Lut basically doing that? Subquestion, is that Arri lut a transformation into a Rec 709 space. 3. (One of the dumber questions), if my external monitor is Rec 709, are the smpte-c color bars of any use? Apologies for the amatuerness, but if you guys could shed some light on your color space conversion workflow and monitor viewing, that would be awesome.

[David Rasberry]

REC709 is a broadcast display standard. For HD finish you want your monitor correctly calibrated for REC709 as your visual reference for grading. How your finished image looks on your monitor will then match to any other TV that is similarly calibrated.
The various camera color space and gamma settings give you multiple options for getting the best results from your footage and achieving the look you want. But you grade your footage to give you that look on a standards calibrated reference monitor. If you change the monitor to fit the footage, you no longer know what it will look like when broadcast.

[Nick Pasquariello]

The one thing I want to correct you on is that, so long as you are recording to Red media and not to an external recording device over SDI or HDMI (like the Pix240 or the Atomos Samurai), you are not recording in a specific color space. The beauty of Raw: you can change the color space at any time.

The standard wisdom (straight from Graeme Nattress of Red) is to monitor in RedColor 3 and RedGamma 3 on set, and then to start your grade from RedColor 3 and RedLogFilm when you are in the final stages of post production.

You do not have to do things this way, and there are a few legitimate reasons/workflows that deviate from this method. But this is the intended primary workflow.

From there, depending on what grading software you are using, you could use a LUT to translate into Rec709 or another standard. Some even use an Arri LUT on their Red footage in, say, Da Vinci Resolve.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

As to the "Arri LUT" I'm not sure to which you speak. Arri Log C? It's similarish to RED Log Film. It need not concern you unless you are unfortunate enough to have to deal with it. ;)

REDLogFilm as Nick Mentioned or OpenEXR (Linear) are the best output settings. Both preserve the full image without clipping for the most part (assuming you don't apply any extreme grading in REDCine). You can then grade to how you want it to look. If you're happy with the look on your computer monitor just apply a sRGB -> rec709 LUT as your last step. Or work the whole time like David said on a dedicated monitor calibrated to Rec709. Working in Rec709 is nice if you have a dedicated screen you can calibrate to rec709 however if you're a multi-purpose machine it will be really bad for general computing.

[Ryan Emanuel]

Thanks for the responses, really appreciated. I'll be exposing for redlogfilm and monitoring in redgamma3, then creating a custom lut for the original redlogfilm on a rec 709 calibrated monitor.

[Mike P.]

Is there any inexpensive rec709 reference monitors out there (like ~$500)? I thinking like a decent consumer 24"-32" display that holds it's colours when the material is shown on other rec709 displays?

Also, does that mean you should apply rec709 Colour Space in RCX or rec709 gamma space in RCX (or both), if that is to be what you'll ultimately "broadcast" on... I was kind of under the impression that the rec709 options in RCX were essentially applying a LUT to your footage. SO, for example, I grade it as I see fit - e.g. RC3/RG3 - and then before export, switch the colour/gamma space to rec709 and while it looks like ass on a monitor, it would look pretty similar to the RC3/RG3 image on a rec709/HDtv display. Or is that completely wrong?

[Rob Ruffo]

Is there any inexpensive rec709 reference monitors out there (like ~$500)? I thinking like a decent consumer 24"-32" display that holds it's colours when the material is shown on other rec709 displays?

Also, does that mean you should apply rec709 Colour Space in RCX or rec709 gamma space in RCX (or both), if that is to be what you'll ultimately "broadcast" on... I was kind of under the impression that the rec709 options in RCX were essentially applying a LUT to your footage. SO, for example, I grade it as I see fit - e.g. RC3/RG3 - and then before export, switch the colour/gamma space to rec709 and while it looks like ass on a monitor, it would look pretty similar to the RC3/RG3 image on a rec709/HDtv display. Or is that completely wrong?

Under $500!? No. Under $2500 yes.

[Mike P.]

I don't mean a broadcast monitor; I mean a consumer display that has surprisingly accurate rec709 results that hold across a broad number of other consumer-level displays...

That said, which $2500 panel were you thinking of?

[Shervin Mandgaryan]

The standard wisdom (straight from Graeme Nattress of Red) is to monitor in RedColor 3 and RedGamma 3 on set, and then to start your grade from RedColor 3 and RedLogFilm when you are in the final stages of post production.

I thought it was best to monitor RC3 and RedLogFilm on set for lighting and reference purposes, as viewing an image with a curve would trick you into thinking you would need more light in a dark area... etc...

[Steve Sherrick]

I don't mean a broadcast monitor; I mean a consumer display that has surprisingly accurate rec709 results that hold across a broad number of other consumer-level displays...

That said, which $2500 panel were you thinking of?

There are Plasma displays that you can get professionally calibrated that hold up pretty well. For entry level, professional Rec709 monitors have a look at Flanders. Probably most bang for the buck right now. Still out of the price range for some, but if you are doing a lot of color work a good investment. HP Dreamcolor is another option.