Request to Red Team regarding timecode

[Brant Hadfield]

As I understand it, and operate it, the only way to get Record start/stop timecode is with edge code. The problem with that, is that edge code is an ancillary type of time code, that most problematically, most producers, and many editors either don't know how to get at, or can't, depending on their editing platforms. This, in turn, means that if I want to display time code for a client on a monitor through SDI out, it cannot be record start and stop. And further, the excellent method of labeling formatted Redmags with edge code starting with the mag number in the hour digits is thus not possible to display for client or producer.

Recommended, and highly desirable solution:

Add an option in the time code menu setup box to have standard timecode mirror edge code. Very simple.

Bottom line - there needs to be a way to have the time code most commonly available to producers in post, a standard record start and stop type of time code without it being the elusive (to many) "edge code"

[Stuart English]

Edge Code IS Run Record timecode.

So just select that to be the primary timecode and your problem is solved.

[Brant Hadfield]

Thanks for your reply Stuart. But either you don't quite get the problem, or there's a menu dialogue I don't know about. Unless I am mistaken, and certainly might be, there is no way to actually change "primary time code" to edge code in terms of what's being recorded as primary timecode. That's precisely what I'm asking for in my post above. The only thing my menu appears to actually allow is switching the timecode DISPLAYED to edge code. My camera is still going to record two different time codes, and I still cannot make that primary code mirror the edge code run record. Thus, if I do set my timecode display to just show edge code, my clients and producers see a completely different number than is actually being generated and recorded as "primary timecode" as you call it. Again, the only thing I seem to be able to do to that timecode track that most of the civilized world is used to and able to see, is change it from user generated free run, or RTC. It will not ever mirror that record start/stop edge code. That is the problemo.

We really need to be able to record primary timecode that can mirror the edge code that follows the mag formatting, and importantly, is record start/stop. Yeah, I can display and use edge code in Avid (it's aux 1), but it's obscure and most producers and editors are not familiar with it.

Bottom line: Mirror edge code to primary option. Please.

Edge Code IS Run Record timecode.

So just select that to be the primary timecode and your problem is solved.

[Marc Wielage]

This, in turn, means that if I want to display time code for a client on a monitor through SDI out, it cannot be record start and stop. And further, the excellent method of labeling formatted Redmags with edge code starting with the mag number in the hour digits is thus not possible to display for client or producer.

I'm confused by your question. All the clients I've ever had typically want time-of-day timecode, so they can see at a glance when something was shot. Reel numbers are a non-issue and are taken care of by the script supervisor and the D.I.T., with notes given to the editor later on (often via email or as PDFs). Our usual method involves an external timecode box on the side of the camera, with the camera jammed (or externally fed) by the box, which in turn is jammed to sound timecode and also jams the timecode slate.

Are you simply trying to see the elapsed running time of each shot? Or just trying to see embedded reel numbers in each shot? As far as I know, this is a feature I can't recall seeing in any digital camera so far. We generally take care of this in editorial, prior to the editor.

I'm reluctant to make the camera operator responsible for entering more information into the camera as it is, since they're already under the gun and trying to get the shot done. The Cameron-Pace system has a method for embedding this information, but as far as I know it's proprietary and not available to non-clients.

[Brant Hadfield]

Every single camera I have used since my news days allows the operator to enter beginning record start/stop timecode values. When we were on tape, we would put the tape number into the hours field, and it helped keep straight, for everyone, the source of a particular shot. While that's less important than it was, I still need the ability to have record run timecode as primary, and I like putting the mag number into the hour digit. Keeps things straight when your on a shoot, especially when mags are flying in and out and you've shot 18 of them, which 2 projects did this month. Yes, edge code does this. Again, the issue is that not many people know about edge code, or can access it. Making record start/stop timecode primary is not a dangerous or technically difficult option, and has been standard on broadcast video cameras I have used in my career which covers 22 years. This camera should do it.

I'm confused by your question. All the clients I've ever had typically want time-of-day timecode, so they can see at a glance when something was shot. Reel numbers are a non-issue and are taken care of by the script supervisor and the D.I.T., with notes given to the editor later on (often via email or as PDFs). Our usual method involves an external timecode box on the side of the camera, with the camera jammed (or externally fed) by the box, which in turn is jammed to sound timecode and also jams the timecode slate.

Are you simply trying to see the elapsed running time of each shot? Or just trying to see embedded reel numbers in each shot? As far as I know, this is a feature I can't recall seeing in any digital camera so far. We generally take care of this in editorial, prior to the editor.

I'm reluctant to make the camera operator responsible for entering more information into the camera as it is, since they're already under the gun and trying to get the shot done. The Cameron-Pace system has a method for embedding this information, but as far as I know it's proprietary and not available to non-clients. [/COLOR]

[Stuart English]

Every single camera I have used since my news days allows the operator to enter beginning record start/stop timecode values. When we were on tape, we would put the tape number into the hours field, and it helped keep straight, for everyone, the source of a particular shot. While that's less important than it was, I still need the ability to have record run timecode as primary, and I like putting the mag number into the hour digit. Keeps things straight when your on a shoot, especially when mags are flying in and out and you've shot 18 of them, which 2 projects did this month. Yes, edge code does this. Again, the issue is that not many people know about edge code, or can access it. Making record start/stop timecode primary is not a dangerous or technically difficult option, and has been standard on broadcast video cameras I have used in my career which covers 22 years. This camera should do it.

Yes all understood, and what you are asking for is available, its just a question of specifying that the RUN REC / EDGE CODE is the primary timecode track - the camera records both types of timecode.

BTW - what camera build are you using and what editing system are you using ?

Thanks for your reply Stuart. But either you don't quite get the problem, or there's a menu dialogue I don't know about. Unless I am mistaken, and certainly might be, there is no way to actually change "primary time code" to edge code in terms of what's being recorded as primary timecode. That's precisely what I'm asking for in my post above. The only thing my menu appears to actually allow is switching the timecode DISPLAYED to edge code. My camera is still going to record two different time codes, and I still cannot make that primary code mirror the edge code run record. Thus, if I do set my timecode display to just show edge code, my clients and producers see a completely different number than is actually being generated and recorded as "primary timecode" as you call it. Again, the only thing I seem to be able to do to that timecode track that most of the civilized world is used to and able to see, is change it from user generated free run, or RTC. It will not ever mirror that record start/stop edge code. That is the problemo.

We really need to be able to record primary timecode that can mirror the edge code that follows the mag formatting, and importantly, is record start/stop. Yeah, I can display and use edge code in Avid (it's aux 1), but it's obscure and most producers and editors are not familiar with it.

Bottom line: Mirror edge code to primary option. Please.

I'll check on what you said, doesn't sound right..

[Brant Hadfield]

Yes all understood, and what you are asking for is available, its just a question of specifying that the RUN REC / EDGE CODE is the primary timecode track - the camera records both types of timecode.

BTW - what camera build are you using and what editing system are you using ?

I'm using the latest beta. It's 96% rock solid. I edit Avid MC6. But once again, the issue isn't what I am editing on, it what OTHERS who will be handed the footage edit on. The issue is "primary timecode", which everyone in the universe knows, can see, references, understands, is only free-running, and "edge code", which for others is abstract, on some mystery auxiliary drop down menu in Avid, and who knows if Premiere can even reference it. Try explaining it to a producer during the lunch break. They don't want the hassle. But they may not always want free-running time code! I know I don't.

I'll check on what you said, doesn't sound right..

You keep saying I should "specify EDGE CODE is the Primary". I know I can specify edge code is DISPLAYED, instead of free run/RTC, but nowhere have I seen I can specify it as "Primary", meaning it's recorded both as primary and edge code. What you keep asking me to do is exactly what I want the camera to do, but it appears it can't. Please tell me where in the menu system I can tell Scarlet to RECORD edge code as the "PRIMARY TIME CODE", not just display it.

[Stuart English]

You keep saying I should "specify EDGE CODE is the Primary". I know I can specify edge code is DISPLAYED, instead of free run/RTC, but nowhere have I seen I can specify it as "Primary", meaning it's recorded both as primary and edge code. What you keep asking me to do is exactly what I want the camera to do, but it appears it can't. Please tell me where in the menu system I can tell Scarlet to RECORD edge code as the "PRIMARY TIME CODE", not just display it.

Brant, the camera software has been set up to allways records both types of timecode - absolute time (TOD) and continuous (EDGE / RUN REC) - its only a metadata question as to which is "displayed" or in other words what is used as the default timecode track by the camera / post system.

[Brant Hadfield]

Brant, the camera software has been set up to allways records both types of timecode - absolute time (TOD) and continuous (EDGE / RUN REC) - its only a metadata question as to which is "displayed" or in other words what is used as the default timecode track by the camera / post system.

Thanks Stuart. You've pretty much repeated what I said in the first post, but displaying Edge Code doesn't make it the "default timecode" as you call it. All it does is change which metadata gets shown, and that's exactly why a change is needed. I'm not sure why RED is so stubborn about this unless none of the engineers have a background with time code in broadcast video cameras. The metadata which edit systems default to, and maybe in the case of Premiere, the ONLY one available to it, is your free-run metadata slot. Edge code is useless to most producers and editors, unless they're on Avid and more importantly, someone has taken the time to show them something unorthodox. Stuart, essentially what you're telling me is that you CANNOT change the "primary timecode" metadata slot to be record start/stop. That's the whole problem stated in my first post. Essentially what this means is that the camera can do start/stop timecode, but few people will know how to access it in post, unlike EVERY OTHER PRO or SEMI PRO CAMERA MADE. Seems odd.

A simple "Mirror Edge Code" would allow the camera's timecode system to behave exactly like every other broadcast camera made in the last 30 years. (and no, we don't need to get into a conversation about this camera not being a "broadcast" camera. It has to function in that world.)

[Stuart English]

Brent, let me do the check ? I do have a broadcast background, so yes I do understand why we need both types of timecode, but I'll also affirm we do need both.