Convincing the Agency?

[Kip Hewitt]

I have been asked to give a Red Camera presentation for a group of Ad Agencies & Production Companies and I'm wondering if some of you good people can help me with my homework. I'm working on a bullet point list of benefits, the so called "Why Choose Red?" list, and I'm having some trouble finding the real compelling nuggets. I know why I love this camera, and I know why you guys love this camera, but what's gonna convince the folks not sitting in the choir to pick this system over DV/HD/35?

Like a lot of you I have had my share of conversations with producers who like to say: "We hear Red is great and all but... we have some reservations" (usually it's the on-set DIT cost or they are under a deadline and it's the post-production they are nervous about).

So I am looking to build a compelling case and I was hoping perhaps some of you could share with me any strategies you've had convincing your clients.

Just to give you some perspective these agencies are used to working with mid-range budgets between 50K & 300K.

Here's a couple things I've come up with so far (in no perticular order):

1) Cost -- Depending on how you slice it the cost of Red is about what you pay for HD, but the image quality is more in line with 35mm.

2) Multi Distribution -- From digital cinema, to plasma, to iPod the image is endlessly changeable. Your web content has the potential to look as vivid as a Movie Trailer on the Apple site.

3) TIFF file extraction -- Each frame has the potential to be a picture in a magazine / brochure / billboard.

4) EFX -- Plays well with green/blue screen

5) On-set feedback -- The on-set workflow has an immediate and collaborative dynamic similar to what digital photography has enjoyed for years. Know when you've got it, know it's gonna look great.

6) Variable Frame Rate -- Everybody loves slow motion!

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I feel like I'm missing some big things so hopefully this can get a dialogue going. And who knows, maybe we will all come out a little better equipped to change their minds?

Or at least we just get our stories straight ;-|

Thank you
-99

[Greg Greene]

I think those are all good points, i have been wondering about this myself, i think the proof will come from what you show them, and even then some will get it and others wont...

Best

GT

[David Birdy]

The commercial house I spoke with sees a big benefited to shooting their own footage and Not having to send the 35MM footage to LA for a DI.
I would presume some of the savings would be passed onto the end user.

I would add a faster turn around time compared to traditional 35 mm, and reduced concern about the film development procedure.

The RED One allows creative people more options for a specific "look" they may want and the ability to use cinema glass to achieve depth of field. This camera adds the benefit of HD with out the traditional “harsh video” look that other cameras are known for.

Some great examples can be found on RED relay, you may want to contact Ted from RED or PM him on this forum, His PM name is tedred.

I do not know of any producer or production company that is not constantly trying to reduce costs, (after 20 years of this I wish I did know a few!) So this may be your main point.
RED One has reduced cost for an image very similar to 35MM.

One area still in flux is the 4K post production work flow....but at least a few hundred people are working on that right now!

PM me if you want to talk more and good luck today!

Dave

[Greg David]

I know why I love this camera, and I know why you guys love this camera, but what's gonna convince the folks not sitting in the choir
-

Looks like they picked the right person.


Best of luck to you. The list looks good so far.

[purefilm]

For a commercial

Try this: On a normal 35mm shoot you are going to have a loader, 2nd AC, 1st AC and opperator (DP). With Red you are going to replace the Loader with the DIT. The Draw back here is that the DIT commissions more money than the loader. You can sell the DIT as a trained professionals who will limit the cost by delivering the best image, exposure, do compression, manage files and color correction before going in post. clients will also be able to see a close to finished image before they leave for the day.

Second point: 400ft = 6 minutes of 24 FSP costing $100 a roll. Depending on the the shoot you are looking to doing on an average 15 - 20 rolls a day shot adding up to $1500 - $2000.

Then you have to go through processing at $.22 a ft + Telecine rate at $650 an HR.

On red the DIT replaces the cost of the lab, cuting the cost more than half.

[Jim McKinney]

For a commercial

Try this: On a normal 35mm shoot you are going to have a loader, 2nd AC, 1st AC and opperator (DP). With Red you are going to replace the Loader with the DIT. The Draw back here is that the DIT commissions more money than the loader. You can sell the DIT as a trained professionals who will limit the cost by delivering the best image, exposure, do compression, manage files and color correction before going in post. clients will also be able to see a close to finished image before they leave for the day.

Second point: 400ft = 6 minutes of 24 FSP costing $100 a roll. Depending on the the shoot you are looking to doing on an average 15 - 20 rolls a day shot adding up to $1500 - $2000.

Then you have to go through processing at $.22 a ft + Telecine rate at $650 an HR.

On red the DIT replaces the cost of the lab, cuting the cost more than half.

"Okay," says the agency or production house. "But are any additional post production costs with the Red?"

How would you answer that one?

(Hey 99, thanks for starting what should be a very useful thread.)

[Brent J. Craig]

I wouldn't focus on#3 - using as a still camera - because shooting stils and shooting motion pictures are completely different things. One example: shooting for 24fps, your shutter speed would be 1/48. This will almost always give too much motion blur for stills. Why not just change the shutter to something more stills-like? Because without motion blur, most video looks weird. AND 8.3 megapixels (4K 2:1) is definitely on the very low end of commercial photography.

#6 - slow motion - 30fps isn't very slow. Most productions, especially commercials won't go for switching to 16mm resolution for slow-mo. Not to mention what that does to the post workflow.

I would focus more on number 2 - multi distribution - emphasizing that you can output Red footage to HD and to cinema commercials without 'retransferring'.

The fact that they can get cinematic depth of field for costs similar to an HD shoot should be huge. You will need to dumb this (way) down and show some very clear examples. Remember most of them don't work for ad agencies because MENSA wasn't hiring. :-)

Be careful discussing costs, because production companies who are already hurting from razor-thin margins will want to move some of the savings they get with Red into their own profit column. Remember the ad agencies are the production company's clients. Helping production co's stay in business helps us keep working.

Emphasize that the post end of things takes a real committment at this point in time. Things will get better (probably right after NAB) but for now the entire post team has to be completely on board and knowing what to expect. Recommend they hold a conference call before each job with: Producer, Director, DP, Red Tech/AC, Post Supervisor, Online house. The last thing the Red revolution needs is a bunch of commercial houses that get burned by huge overages in post because people assumed it would be just like film.


Other small points to throw in:

-motion control - this is a rock-solid metal camera body that will not budge on a mo-co rig. HD cameras, without exception, are made of plastic and wiggle around a surprising amount on a motion control rig or lock-off shot

-100% solid state - when using CF cards there are no moving parts. No worries about vibration

-no film processing / video transfer - files (QT proxies) are ready to use right away in supported editing systems. There is no need to wait for processing and transfer to start cutting. BUT emphasize the need for a proper DI/Color session before delivery. RedAlert/Cine are great, but they do not replace skilled Colorists and million-dollar suites.

-great looking video tap on set - clients can see a very good representation of how their product will look. Some Red crews show up with huge plasma/lcd monitors that will definitely impress the agency's clients, which is more important than you can imagine.

-Security and backups - since the footage starts out digital, you can make as many copies as you want for backups. No more worries and liabilities fedexing your only negative off to NYC for transfer. Everyone can go home with a hard drive if they want.


...I'm sure I have some more to offer. Will leave this processing in the background as I do other stuf today...

[Jim McKinney]

Emphasize that the post end of things takes a real committment at this point in time. Things will get better (probably right after NAB) but for now the entire post team has to be completely on board and knowing what to expect. Recommend they hold a conference call before each job with: Producer, Director, DP, Red Tech/AC, Post Supervisor, Online house. The last thing the Red revolution needs is a bunch of commercial houses that get burned by huge overages in post because people assumed it would be just like film.

. . .

You make some very good points, especially the one I just quoted here.

I would not be so quick to dismiss the still photography benefit. One could change the shutter speed and grab a frame from that. On the lower budget jobs, this could be a good solution.

[purefilm]

Being a loader/2nd I have a strong understanding of the production work-Flow. However I do not have a strong understanding of the post work-flow. What I figure is the work-flow in post can not be much different than film. I could be wrong.

If anyone can answer the post side, please chime in.

[Brent J. Craig]

Being a loader/2nd I have a strong understanding of the production work-Flow. However I do not have a strong understanding of the post work-flow. What I figure is the work-flow in post can not be much different than film. I could be wrong.

The work flow is quite a bit different. This is something all of us production types are struggling to understand.

As our jobs are being changed by all this new digital stuff, we have to be much more aware of post and the consequences of the camera choices we make on set.

Go to any and all Red workflow demos you can find. Talk to editors and post houses. Find a sympathetic producer that will let you observe the entire post process.