Assimilate Red Plugin for Premiere and After Effects

[Maz Mawlawi]

I really think once Cineform is "allowed" to continue development and support for RED files, it will most likely be the easiest and most robust workflow for its pricepoint. The problem is we have to wait for RED to finish their code...hopefully this won't take for ever. As it stands currently, Redcine is pretty much unusable for some of us...

[laguun]

Quite a few facilities view this as a *plus*. You point out the negatives. But you could also look at it this way:

1) Two computers means spreading catastrophic data loss risk

If one has the finishing (FC) and the other the editing (scratch), crashing one will crash the project. so indeed its double the risk.
Same as with raids, the more disk one adds, the higher the failure quota.
IT 101.

IF your argument should be correct, then both system would need redundant functionality, being able to do the same. But that is the opposite of what is needed now.

2) Two computers = twice the work. While SystemB is finishing, SystemA can be starting the next job

Once more, that would be possible if both systems could perform the same tasks. But you are indeed once more in the opposite situation. If you have to go back to re-edit something on the OSX/FCS / WIN/SC combi, both systems are blocked. If both could do the same, that would be no problem.

Furthermore, in the FCS/Scratch combi tons of stuff have to be done specific. How do you output an webstream or bluray master from scratch, or how do you import the finished 10bit VFX into FCS? All that is pretty limiting and certainly not -adding- productivity, but requiring logistics and supervision.

3) More tools = more offerings to make to clients

You neither need two OS nor two computers for more tools.

And learning two applications and two operating systems just really isn't a valid argument at all. Probably just about everybody on this forum and certainly most of the post professionals I work with are versatile if not fluent in OSX and XP.

Certainly not. Any editor i know personally who has had more than once the #1 in the cinemaboxoffice is a -single platform- user. And most of them are well above 50 and completly unwilling to learn the respective "other" OS.

IT departments at any major facility work fluidly with XP, OSX, Linux, and (usually) Irix.

Sure, but the average indie and the average agency doenßt want to have to contact or consult the -IT dept-, they want to have, an easy straightforward solution. And work with the partners they prefer, not with the one who has the matching NLE or DI, as 35mm, hdcam SR, Thomson Viper, 65mm, heck even digibeta work with all standard workflows.

I used to believe that as well. I've changed my mind over the years. Offline is such a different task with different skills and different timeframes that I believe they will always be fundamentally separate. Especially for feature work, which can be in editorial for months at a time.

There are editing systems and DI, and there are offline and online -quality-.
What was the last time you saw someone editing DV offline? Or sound? Have you come across -any- broadcast workflow which isnßt online anymore? Have you -ever- seen Avid editors using AVR3s in the last decade? Why are the lowest codecs of avid and apple all promoted as online, even dnaxh is above manybroadcast formats.

Nono, offline will go away. In -any- media industy which started offline in order to use computer which are not up to task, once the computer were powerful enough, offline went away. SD editing, Audio, and meanwhile also mostly 1080p.

editing systems which do not do DI, but edit for months, shure, they will still exist. But offline -quality- will fade away even further. 15 years ago, almost -any- spot/feature was offlined, i would be surprised if its still 50% today.

No doubt. Smoke's success is due to its all-in-one capability. But at least in LA, Chicago, London, and NYC - the four biggest commercial markets in the world - offline editing is not done on Smoke. The vast majority of commercial editing is done at editorial boutiques and the online and finishing are done on Smoke. Look at any edition of Creativity, AdWeek, Shoot, etc. The credits for major ads are *always* split with editorial at one facility and finishing at another.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

almost any market was 100% offline. for spots there are still many offliners, but they meanwhile often "offline" at 1080p. For broadcast they almost disappeared - and once the 10 Terrabyte disk is at 99$ we will see how many offline editing will remain. Many of the most succesful editors i know are now buying Adrenaline HDs for their Avids... because they want to edit in 1080p, simply as -everyone- likes is better.

my position is clear: offline makes sense, but -only- if the used computer is to weak.

[Thomas Mathai]

I have worked in a multi-platform environment for years. There are advantages and disadvantages to every platform.

While I think it's fine to have a preference for one over the other, it doesn't make sense to be completely one platform centric anymore.

If the bleeding edge is making you feel uncomfortable, come back in a year or so after your competition has figured it all out.

[laguun]

I have worked in a multi-platform environment for years. There are advantages and disadvantages to every platform.
While I think it's fine to have a preference for one over the other, it doesn't make sense to be completely one platform centric anymore.

we use irix, linux, osx and windows. irix is fading away here, osx is rather an island (mainly as compability FCS stations), linux is most of the backbone and the sony, discreet, adobe (and realviz, avid etcs) system are all windows basing.

If the bleeding edge is making you feel uncomfortable, come back in a year or so after your competition has figured it all out.

Thanks for the advice Mathai, but that wasnt why we ordered our reds in 2006.

furthermore we have had -already then- 4k workflows in the house, and they were not bleeding edge even back then. for any usual tradeshows $$$.$$$ or $.$$$.$$$ budget, you usually do large multiscreens, even 8K was no exception back then. I think we did a 9600*1080 for daimler chrysler in 2002.

Its not about the bleeding edge function, red has them mostly worked out (4K, S35mm sensor, raw recording format, >24/25p digital hir-res etc). Its about the -total- basics as Timecode and EDLs and an open fileformat. These don´t work good yet.

And if you consider speedgrade, fcs, scratch or adobe CS3 the edge, then you maybe should have a look at the systems which offer a full class more power, as clipster, baselight etc. They are years ahead in terms of sheer computation, bandwidth and dsp power and deliver functions most midlevel di systems (as the bespoken speedgrade or scratch) didn´t even announce yet, such as multistream, realtime, uncompressed, colorcorrected 4K with input and output to screens and data, networked and solid realtimeFX.

[Lucas Wilson]

Same as with raids, the more disk one adds, the higher the failure quota. IT 101.

IF your argument should be correct, then both system would need redundant functionality, being able to do the same. But that is the opposite of what is needed now.

Laguun, this particular thread has just worn me out. No time to respond... too busy selling SCRATCH to people to people who are pretty happy with the workflow as it stands - two OS, two machines and all. :)

Lucas

[laguun]

Laguun, this particular thread has just worn me out. No time to respond...

so, if i understand you correctly: assimilate recommends 3hrd parties to implement an redcode raw in Adobes, Avids, Discreets, Quantels and is not interested?
I am asking because we have several customers asking which route they should go, and we told them that you guys are not interested to offer an windows basing editorial integration with Avid in 2008.

too busy selling SCRATCH to people to people who are pretty happy with the workflow as it stands - two OS, two machines and all. :)
Lucas

congrats.
enjoy it while its lasting.

BTW: do you think that scratch will be popular for the online finishing/editing in 24-48 months? or you think that is to long as business cycle to predict?

[Lucas Wilson]

so, if i understand you correctly: assimilate recommends 3hrd parties to implement an redcode raw in Adobes, Avids, Discreets, Quantels and is not interested

Laguun,

You haven't met me yet, and it's so hard to tell moods over email, but I'm just messing with you, dude. :)

Lucas

[Thomas Mathai]

we use irix, linux, osx and windows. irix is fading away here, osx is rather an island (mainly as compability FCS stations), linux is most of the backbone and the sony, discreet, adobe (and realviz, avid etcs) system are all windows basing.


Thanks for the advice Mathai, but that wasnt why we ordered our reds in 2006.

furthermore we have had -already then- 4k workflows in the house, and they were not bleeding edge even back then. for any usual tradeshows $$$.$$$ or $.$$$.$$$ budget, you usually do large multiscreens, even 8K was no exception back then. I think we did a 9600*1080 for daimler chrysler in 2002.

Its not about the bleeding edge function, red has them mostly worked out (4K, S35mm sensor, raw recording format, >24/25p digital hir-res etc). Its about the -total- basics as Timecode and EDLs and an open fileformat. These don´t work good yet.

And if you consider speedgrade, fcs, scratch or adobe CS3 the edge, then you maybe should have a look at the systems which offer a full class more power, as clipster, baselight etc. They are years ahead in terms of sheer computation, bandwidth and dsp power and deliver functions most midlevel di systems (as the bespoken speedgrade or scratch) didn´t even announce yet, such as multistream, realtime, uncompressed, colorcorrected 4K with input and output to screens and data, networked and solid realtimeFX.

I'm well aware of what's out there. You're not the only one who keeps up on the new toys.

But then I don't whine as much about it... would you like some cheese?

[laguun]

I'm well aware of what's out there. You're not the only one who keeps up on the new toys.

But then I don't whine as much about it... would you like some cheese?

Mr. Mathai,

besides a certain lack of basic manners i have the impression that you furthermore dont understand what this thread is mainly about.

its not us who have the problems - our workflow is functional.
its the regular customers for our 3 red cameras who are having problems planning their inhouse workflow for april and may.

I am certain that you might tell your customers "don't whine as much about it... " - our customers however have a somewhat higher service experience usually.

[laguun]

Laguun,

You haven't met me yet, and it's so hard to tell moods over email, but I'm just messing with you, dude. :)

Lucas

hrrhrr, yeah, i certainly miss certain ironies here and there... i also suppose if we meet once at nab/ibc cannes/berlinale 08/09 or one of the usual come together we might have some rather entertaining exchanges :)