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  1. #1031  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Whitcomb View Post
    This thread.... pretty much summed up right here with Redusers shooting and the thing on the Train being the "Price cut" ...even the dialogue works!

    LOL. I see it more as a "What would happen if you won the lottery?" kind of a thing. RED has. They have recoupled. Costs have dropped. They have won the lottery. Now, will they give all the money to Mom because she deserves it, or will they spend it on making new friends? ;)

    Some of the comments in this are hilarious. http://http://learning.blogs.nytimes...n-the-lottery/

  2. #1032  
    Senior Member Terry VerHaar's Avatar
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    Marin County, CA
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan Spasic View Post
    It makes sense that you have hard time understanding how others feel because you are not in the same situation, probably not even in the same business. You own a Scarlet, yes? I also presume you have a day job or another source of income? Well then....To answer your question, we've been sold cameras under a motto "obsolescence obsolete" which was generously demonstrated through the R1 trade-in program. But what I have now is the quickest devaluating piece of tech I've ever owned. This does not only apply to Epic body but almost every piece of Red gear. Stuff we've payed premium prices and waited for months on to arrive, only a couple of years ago, is literally worthless. You can't give it away for the 10th of its price. So why is Red superseding every other manufacturer in this respect? The price drop doesn't help anybody but the potential new buyers. Even for them I would advise to proceede with caution.
    You know the old saying about ASS/U/ME.

    As for talking about how others "feel" - I didn't think that was the issue in this discussion. Of course people "feel" disappointed or angry or upset or cheated or fearful. But the real issue is the rational thought behind running a business and acting and thinking rationally. I am not contesting anyone's "feelings." My comments have been pointed at those who can't seem to get used to the idea that an "investment" in technology with an expectation of stable prices and/or value, is a fool's bet from the beginning. Would it make you "feel" better if I "felt" sorry for all of us who paid full price for our equipment? (Doesn't change the rationale of the actions people have taken.)

    I don't think you mean "literally" worthless. If that's the case, send it along to me - I'll pay shipping. LOL
    Last edited by Terry VerHaar; 10-31-2012 at 05:37 PM.

  3. #1033  
    Member Peer Landa's Avatar
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    Nov 2011
    Norwegian lost in CA
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan Spasic View Post
    Stuff we've payed premium prices and waited for months on to arrive, only a couple of years ago, is literally worthless.
    So from tomorrow on your Epic camera is "literally worthless"...?! Oh brother, what a bizarro world you are living in.

    -- peer

  4. #1034  
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan Spasic View Post
    is literally worthless.
    lmao.. You expect anyone to take this seriously? Really? If u mean this I urge you to give yourself a little more credit then that. I'm sure you can find a way to make one of the best cameras on the market worth something.

  5. #1035  
    Senior Member Mark Toia's Avatar
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    Jan 2008
    Could be anywhere in the world today.
    I don't care if they come down 1,000 bucks or 10,000 bucks... I'm just happy that they do what I want them to do... and exist for me to profit from.

    Sony's cameras don't do what I need... (yet) ... even with there new breed.
    Arris cameras don't do what I need... (yet) .... and the way they are talking they may never tick all my boxes.
    Canon don't do what I need... (yet) ... But I think they are RED's biggest competitor. The moment they can do high speed RAW and Canon pricing... Then that will swing my thinking.

    And to upgrade any of the above means I have to buy another camera....
    To upgrade RED will cost me 6K... ?

    In saying all that... One day one of these companies will bring out a EPIC killer... and RED may be behind the 8 ball. Its happend to before, it will happen again.

    Canon did it to nikon and vise versa.... And RED acknowledge that there is stiff competition coming in fast and they could loose customers if they fall behind.
    But till that happens RED is for me for now....

    Did I mention I have gone from Nikon to Canon back to nikon and then to canon again...
    Ive also gone from Sony to Canon to Arri to RED...

    This cycle of chasing a technical edge and price advantage is real for us all...
    Mark Toia
    Director / DP / Founder of Zoom Film & Television

  6. #1036  
    Senior Member Shervin Mandgaryan's Avatar
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    Feb 2012
    Dubai / Toronto
    I love the sudden attitude drop when prices are lowered. The same guys saying their stuff is worthless now only a few weeks ago were touting around as the best of the best.

    Sure, if the Epic is a 'worthless' asset to you now, you can always jump ship and pay 3-4x more for inferior tech with the bigger names. The people who actually appreciate the product and the price drop based on an HONEST assessment of how their manufacturing prices have decreased will benefit the most. No other company on EARTH will ever drop the prices like RED will. Too much greed in this world... for RED to stay clear of that says alot.

    I'll always be a RED owner because of this mentality and find it almost hostile that anyone who paid to partake in RED's domination of 4k in the last few years has suddenly looked at their own purchases as a worthless investment.
    Shervin Mandgaryan


  7. #1037  
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    Oct 2007
    I don't think he is talking about the epic. Case in point, I gave away red drives because absolutely no one would pay any money for them. I have been unable to sell my 5" red one monitor. I have red one top mounts from ET that are only worth anything to me because I have a machine shop and can mill off the useless bits and use them for something else (I have yet to discover a use for them). I get the feeling that a lot of the people who are so reluctant to admit that this has any actual impact haven't been in the business very long.

    I think it will hurt the perception of Red to cut the price. It's already the "cheap" camera, it's already the "hobbyist/indie" camera. That is how it is perceived by a lot of producers and crews. I personally disagree. I think it's the most powerful tool ever put into the hands of filmmakers. Unfortunately, when you get 700 dingbats running around with completely half assed scarlet, or even epic packages, that is the perception that is promoted. I really genuinely challenge you to go find a complete mickey mouse Alexa production where they are running around with enough batteries to shoot for 2 hours, a manfroto head, and a 1200 dollar still lens that they think they can shoot their whole project on.

    I do not plan on lowering my rental rates. My clients will not expect me too. I wasn't planning on selling my cameras anyway. This in no way negatively affects me. I do think it will harm the perception of Red as a brand if they come out slashing prices. But, then again, I don't expect to be seeing $20k epics ;-) I guess we will find out tomorrow.


  8. #1038  
    Senior Member Timur Civan's Avatar
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    Jan 2007
    LA - NYC

    As a guy who is mid way through a used epic lease to own, this can potentially hurt me pretty badly. If the price drops to where a new camera is worth less than what I owe, I will be in trouble. The only reason I'm able to make payments is that rental rates are high.

    Then again, there are epic owners right now giving up their cameras for peanuts. I'm getting great rates. I suppose it has to do with my rolodex of clients, rather than the price of the camera. It's disconcerting but not catastrophic. Ultimately people are paying me to shoot, not provide a camera at a low price. In fact, they seem to pay what ever price I set. Thankfully. I followed Jim's advice. I worked my camera hard.
    Director Of Photography
    RED Weapon Helium - Gemini
    --Official Sigma Pro--

  9. #1039  
    Senior Member Bob Gundu's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Toronto, ON Canada
    I'm going to stick up for the younger generation who will supposedly tarnish the RED name. The craft of filmmaking which was once accessible to those that went to school, has suddenly become an affordable hobby available to anyone with some ambition and a dream. For many years I used to train students young and old, on how to use 3D animation software. Hands down, the young kids that have never had any exposure to anything like it, were the ones that blew me away. We need to stop thinking about this elitist attitude and elevating status towards technology purely on cost. Technology is changing so rapidly that your business model shouldn't rely on paying off the gear in a year or two. It has to be within a few jobs or it's not worth to buy. So I'm sorry for those that have invested a lot, but the writing was on the wall. Everything you think you know about this business is about to turn upside down. We are the old dogs about to get our asses kicked. Adapt or die. Red set out to make affordable gear for the indie filmmakers and they will continue to do so. This price cut is only the beginning. Things will continue to get cheaper. You can bet on that. Buying expensive gear does not get you ahead. Buying the most expensive shovel doesn't guarantee a better hole. Sorry for the rant. The sooner we get on with the new regime, the better.

    VFX, Cinematographer, Photographer
    10 frame handles

  10. #1040  
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    Jun 2009
    I understand where the rental guys are coming from... but it's been pretty clear for a while that the industry is going towards an ownership market. Most up and coming DP's and directors own their own stuff now. It just makes sense these days. This is the future. We've had computers for like 20 years now... why are people still surprised when things like these happen?

    I mean, come on... do you you really think it's right to have manufacturers sell gear at artificially high-prices so that owners can sell services at extorted prices? This is called "collude and demand". This is Cronyism. Is this what everyone is pissed off about going on in the world today? Oh yea, I forgot... it's totally fine when it's "you're" industry, and "you're job".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gundu View Post
    Technology is changing so rapidly that your business model shouldn't rely on paying off the gear in a year or two. It has to be within a few jobs or it's not worth to buy. So I'm sorry for those that have invested a lot, but the writing was on the wall. Everything you think you know about this business is about to turn upside down.
    +1 exactly. Everyone applauded Red when they gave people an options to get away from the camera rental monopoly that only a few had access to. Now they're continuing with this tradition, trying to be more competitive, and open up even more opportunity, and they get bashed? How hypocritical.

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