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  1. #1161  
    I was going purchase one or two epics to use in the rental market as an extra of income (while simultaneously helping pay for the purchase ) So this all seems bitter sweet, the sweet part is obvious. I just wonder will the market be over saturated with epics galore, driving the cost of rentals to the floor?
     

  2. #1162  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axel Mertes View Post
    Its not just wedding and such. There are so many areas RED has never went to directly, and their tools aren't really made for that (but may be upgraded using special firmware):

    Industrial, Surveillance etc.

    Next week is the "Vision" exhibition in Stuttgart, Germany. Probably the hottest spot of sensor development, industrial and serveillance camera use, world wide. If you go there, you will see all the big guys. And you will be blown away what there is. 4K sensors "from the shelf". I expect a few 4K high speed cameras at really low cost to see there this year. Last year we saw like 17 2K cameras doing up to 340fps, for as low as 1700 Euros. Feeding uncompressed (!!!) RAW at over 600 MByte/s.

    This market is soooooo much bigger that this damn film industry!

    Where do you believe have those Vision Research and similar cameras been sold to in the past?
    You need them for automotive, military, machine vision etc.
    When you see such cameras in the film business, you mostly see a "gimmick". Its nice niche they take to meet nice people and make publicity with nice shots. The money is earned with machine vision. But there the competition is pretty hard.

    Think of the Birger mount - developed for Machine Vision needs.

    Or the SI-2K body, it was an industrial head.

    Back then, the Drake camera (Jim knows exactly what I am writing about), was using an industrial head.

    Jim aimed from day 1 to sell 10,000+ cameras for military use. He told me so. We all don't know if such think happend / happens. The RED BULL STRATOS stuff was a good advertising in this regard.

    Guys, if you believe that there is a saturated market of movie makers - well, yes, could be true for a certain degree of investment level.
    As has already been said, if you lower the price, more poeple will buy (especially when the quality is good).
    But opening up completely new markets is a a completely different story.
    Imagine 5K+ sensors in surveillance cameras spotting places all over cities, spying for hooligans in football stadiums and so many other things that come to mind after 9/11. Not that I like that idea, but THERE is a market. Talking intelligent agencies here. Latest stuff, best stuff - what they need.

    We all know from those Bond & Co movies that we can zoom into that surveillance cameras endlessly.

    Here we go...

    Jim, give me a note and I wear a RED T-Shirt on Vision 2012... :)

    Cheers,
    Axel
    At last, somebody with some sense. I have been saying this sort of stuff for years, plus about the rental market that people generally did not seem to contemplate.

    The issue is that they rely to heavily on the Cinema market, which is too easy to saturate. Eventually we might see a shrink of the rental market from too many people owning one.

    Back then, the Drake camera (Jim knows exactly what I am writing about), was using an industrial head.
    Really, I knew too, seen the original specs. I also knew somebody that was seeking work at Red. Wonder what the connection was.
    Inferiorly superior (humbleness)
    rather than superiorly inferior (arrogance).

    Reputation is something the unwise apply.
    But integrity is what the wise apply.
     

  3. #1163  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jannard View Post
    Our job is not to secure you rental rates. If that was our model, we would do it ourselves.

    Our goal is to put professional equipment in the hands of as many aspiring cinephotographers as possible. If you can make money renting your camera out... great. But that is not what is driving our business.

    Jim

    Hollywood is a huge driver of your business. By you citing many of the larger players in our business as supporters of your cameras you must agree with that. The largest source of Red cameras being used in Hollywood, and the other major production cities around the world, are from rental houses. So by turning your back on the rental industry, as you just did by this statement, you have turned your back on Hollywood. We will see how that works out for Red in the long run.
     

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  #1164  
    Red Leader Jannard's Avatar
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    I have not turned my back on Hollywood or our rental partners. I'm talking about individual owners that buy to rent. I have no problem with this. But it is not what drives decisions here.

    We have relationships with the best in the business starting with Peter Jackson. Peter fully supports getting RED cameras in the hands of the aspiring shooter.

    Adam. Your post seems quite angry. Are you also angry that Sony has announced a sub-$20,000 4K camera when they sold a 1080P camera for over $300K just a year or so ago?

    It is always my intention to tell it like it is. You have the right to skew that into whatever you want.

    Our mission was clear from the beginning. It was to democratize the professional camera industry and stop $300K cameras from being the only alternative. It was nearly impossible for young and creative shooters to afford, even rent, a pro camera. We have changed that. If you feel that is a crime... guilty. Death sentence for us.

    Jim

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam S View Post
    Hollywood is a huge driver of your business. By you citing many of the larger players in our business as supporters of your cameras you must agree with that. The largest source of Red cameras being used in Hollywood, and the other major production cities around the world, are from rental houses. So by turning your back on the rental industry, as you just did by this statement, you have turned your back on Hollywood. We will see how that works out for Red in the long run.
    "The camera is arguably one of the most important of all inventions… it is the single tool that has the ability to stop time, record history, generate art, tell stories, and communicate messages that transcend language like nothing else ever conceived."

    "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

    We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude.
     

  5. #1165  
    Senior Member Nathaniel Kramer's Avatar
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    JIm, I dont think anyone can argue your point. What you have done is monumental. Just feels like it came too quick. In June I spent 38k on an epic x, ssd, and pl mount. Now 4 months later its 24k.. Isnt that about a 45% price reduction? Sure, it is great for the new buyer, but for us who paid the old price, well, we kind of feel a bit like schmucks... just saying.....
     

  6. #1166  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jannard View Post
    Our mission was clear from the beginning. It was to democratize the professional camera industry and stop $300K cameras from being the only alternative. It was nearly impossible for young and creative shooters to afford, even rent, a pro camera. We have changed that. If you feel that is a crime... guilty. Death sentence for us.

    Jim
    Thanks Jim,

    For that you have my gratitude. Well done. Really. I can't thank you enough.
     

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  #1167  
    Red Leader Jannard's Avatar
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    The world is changing at a high rate of speed... electronics especially. I fully understand why this is a sting yet I would also hope that you would understand that we have bent over backwards for our customers. We upgraded a RED ONE at FULL price to an EPIC. I'm not quite sure when that was ever done in the history of anything let alone cameras. We provide free upgrades... a 1st in this industry. We upgrade your sensor to the latest for a fraction of what a new camera would cost. There is still not another camera company that has offered this.

    At some point we expect our customers to understand the big picture... and that time is now.

    Jim

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel Kramer View Post
    JIm, I dont think anyone can argue your point. What you have done is monumental. Just feels like it came too quick. In June I spent 38k on an epic x, ssd, and pl mount. Now 4 months later its 24k.. Isnt that about a 45% price reduction? Sure, it is great for the new buyer, but for us who paid the old price, well, we kind of feel a bit like schmucks... just saying.....
    "The camera is arguably one of the most important of all inventions… it is the single tool that has the ability to stop time, record history, generate art, tell stories, and communicate messages that transcend language like nothing else ever conceived."

    "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

    We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude.
     

  8. #1168  
    Senior Member Peter Moretti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam S View Post
    Hollywood is a huge driver of your business. By you citing many of the larger players in our business as supporters of your cameras you must agree with that. The largest source of Red cameras being used in Hollywood, and the other major production cities around the world, are from rental houses. So by turning your back on the rental industry, as you just did by this statement, you have turned your back on Hollywood. We will see how that works out for Red in the long run.
    Adam, and what did Final Cut and Avid (eventually) do to the rental NLE market? What has Adobe done to the FX market? BMD to the color correction and I/O markets? This the world we live in.

    But far from hurting Hollywood, I think Red is helping the industry. The more beginning filmmakers that are familiar with using Red cameras the more experienced talent available to Hollywood productions. I don't see how that hurts Hollywood.
    1110001100010102
     

  9. #1169  
    Senior Member Nathaniel Kramer's Avatar
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    I know you have bent over backwards for us. But as Clinton said, do the math :) But now i feel a bit like im bending over forwards and im the prison shower room .... Not sure if the 6k upgrade price is much of a consolation.. What price will the epic with dragon be priced at? Ill be in at 40k with the upgrade. I assume the new dragonized epic will be 30K?.. I think really the smart thing to NOT do is be the early adopter...But I just cant help myself so shame on me!
     

  10. #1170  
    Senior Member sergio arguello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jannard View Post
    I have not turned my back on Hollywood or our rental partners. I'm talking about individual owners that buy to rent. I have no problem with this. But it is not what drives decisions here.

    We have relationships with the best in the business starting with Peter Jackson. Peter fully supports getting RED cameras in the hands of the aspiring shooter.

    Adam. Your post seems quite angry. Are you also angry that Sony has announced a sub-$20,000 4K camera when they sold a 1080P camera for over $300K just a year or so ago?

    It is always my intention to tell it like it is. You have the right to skew that into whatever you want.

    Our mission was clear from the beginning. It was to democratize the professional camera industry and stop $300K cameras from being the only alternative. It was nearly impossible for young and creative shooters to afford, even rent, a pro camera. We have changed that. If you feel that is a crime... guilty. Death sentence for us.

    Jim
    Jim,

    perhaps it just was about the Sony announcement and the desire to clock them on the head before they got any steam, but you could have thought it through a bit and taken what saving the production and electronics was giving red
    and put the discount on Dragon, and not had this dust storm of disgruntled owners. I have been with you guys nearly from inception and have fought all the beta battles that came with that, but I must say trust is something that has to be measure prior
    to being tampered with, and i believe you know this all to well. I posted on another thread about Dragon and meisler prices and what we can trust, or not, about those costs. Your absolutely right about RED and
    how we all helped turn this into a 4k environment, and it is and there are choices now from Sony, and several others that are coming down the pipe. therefore its massively important to maintain TRUST that took
    5years to build, and not throw it away in a single decision.I have paid for my cameras from working them, yet that doesnt make the price drop of any of my assets feel any better and much less from the man i bought them from
    just my thoughts and i know it doest change a thing but ive always fely cared for by you, jarred, kelly, brent...etc so i had to let you know
    sergio Arguello:
    Epic-M 459,Epic-X 751
    RED Rocket™™™

    sergioarguello.net
     

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