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  1. #1171  
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    The 4k marketplace is changing boys, and competition drives prices down. This is a good thing.

    If it weren't for Jim, many would still be giving Sony $10,000 for HD cams instead of shooting 4k or worse yet as Jim pointed out, $300,000 for a cam that is actually capable. Where's the beef?

    Rental houses that upgrade their Epics to Dragon will only be into the body for less than $50,000. That's a one year old camera that is fully capable and still on the cutting edge. It will still rent and full systems will still command good rentals. The peripherals are not slipping in value and all rental outfits I know of slash camera rates already, making their real money on everything else. Folks are fond of saying "It's not the camera, it's what you do with it that counts." In rentals it's not the camera, it's the package and peripherals that make your money.

    I also see this like a stock. You don't realize an actual loss until you sell it. As long as you hold it, and work it the camera has taken no loss. For some it may take a little longer and a little more investment to recoup, but it can recoup.

    If Red were to lay down and let the first real competitor price them out of the market, then where would you be? What would Epic be worth in three years if Red were to quit? By staying in the game and developing the system Red is standing by it's customers.
    Last edited by Scott Crawley; 11-01-2012 at 10:53 PM.
     

  2. #1172  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jannard View Post
    Adam. Your post seems quite angry. Are you also angry that Sony has announced a sub-$20,000 4K camera when they sold a 1080P camera for over $300K just a year or so ago?
    You have said many times you think that practice is horrible and you would never do that to owners of Red cameras. What you don't realize is you have done basically the same thing.

    My understanding on how cameras are release is that Sony, Arri, etc. release a camera with the technology they can at a price the market can support. Then when they are ready to release a camera with new technology, new capabilities, new features and a new price they announce it and roughly 6-12 months later they ship that new camera. One thing that allows owners on the cutting edge to do is sell those cameras to secondary markets and prepare for the next generation of camera.

    You have not stated any intention to release a new camera with new features or capabilities, on the contrary you have stated the Epic can anything and everything and is perfect, I'm paraphrasing of course. I'm assuming you think the Dragon sensor is what will be the new technology that you're offering as a replacement. That means nobody needs to buy a whole new camera to have the latest and greatest, just replace the sensor and you're back on top. That allows for a significantly lower cost of investment to have the next generation of camera technology.

    Are you positioning the modules to be the only part of the typical process of adding new features to the camera? The potential problem with this is that Red is totally invested and committed to the current form factor of the camera Brain. Are you saying you do not think you will ever need to improve the ergonomics of your camera system? I hope you realize there are vast improvements in the ergonomics of the current cameras that should be addressed. By stating you think you only need to replace the sensor and not address the, obvious, faults in the Epic/Scarlet basic camera design you are saying you do not have plans on creating better cameras. You are saying the only thing that matters is how many K's, dynamic range, sensitivity and colors you can cram onto a sensor. There is more to a camera than just the capabilities of a sensor and it's price.

    Other camera companies are going to continue to develop and improve the form of their cameras in hopes to create a better camera system. I hope only improving your sensors and lower the price is enough to keep Red going for the long run. Good luck with your new business model as a camera sensor developer.
     

  3.   This is the last RED TEAM post in this thread.   #1173  
    Red Leader Jannard's Avatar
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    Apparently we can't make everyone happy. Oh, well. It isn't for the lack of effort.

    My best to you.

    Jim

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam S View Post
    You have said many times you think that practice is horrible and you would never do that to owners of Red cameras. What you don't realize is you have done basically the same thing.

    My understanding on how cameras are release is that Sony, Arri, etc. release a camera with the technology they can at a price the market can support. Then when they are ready to release a camera with new technology, new capabilities, new features and a new price they announce it and roughly 6-12 months later they ship that new camera. One thing that allows owners on the cutting edge to do is sell those cameras to secondary markets and prepare for the next generation of camera.

    You have not stated any intention to release a new camera with new features or capabilities, on the contrary you have stated the Epic can anything and everything and is perfect, I'm paraphrasing of course. I'm assuming you think the Dragon sensor is what will be the new technology that you're offering as a replacement. That means nobody needs to buy a whole new camera to have the latest and greatest, just replace the sensor and you're back on top. That allows for a significantly lower cost of investment to have the next generation of camera technology.

    Are you positioning the modules to be the only part of the typical process of adding new features to the camera? The potential problem with this is that Red is totally invested and committed to the current form factor of the camera Brain. Are you saying you do not think you will ever need to improve the ergonomics of your camera system? I hope you realize there are vast improvements in the ergonomics of the current cameras that should be addressed. By stating you think you only need to replace the sensor and not address the, obvious, faults in the Epic/Scarlet basic camera design you are saying you do not have plans on creating better cameras. You are saying the only thing that matters is how many K's, dynamic range, sensitivity and colors you can cram onto a sensor. There is more to a camera than just the capabilities of a sensor and it's price.

    Other camera companies are going to continue to develop and improve the form of their cameras in hopes to create a better camera system. I hope only improving your sensors and lower the price is enough to keep Red going for the long run. Good luck with your new business model as a camera sensor developer.
    "The camera is arguably one of the most important of all inventions… it is the single tool that has the ability to stop time, record history, generate art, tell stories, and communicate messages that transcend language like nothing else ever conceived."

    "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

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  4. #1174  
    Senior Member Nathaniel Kramer's Avatar
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    ... we can argue about this forever.. Bottom line is Jim makes a damn good camera especially given the new pricing... Im not thrilled with the new pricing but I am still thrilled with my Epics......I will continue to buy Red.. Time to go to bed.. Its 210 am and I have a 7 am call time... Good night
     

  5. #1175  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Jones View Post
    Yes well, I feel the same way. I never want to buy another camera body.
    Me neither. We are out of the game.
     

  6. #1176  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel Kramer View Post
    JIm, I dont think anyone can argue your point. What you have done is monumental. Just feels like it came too quick. In June I spent 38k on an epic x, ssd, and pl mount. Now 4 months later its 24k.. Isnt that about a 45% price reduction? Sure, it is great for the new buyer, but for us who paid the old price, well, we kind of feel a bit like schmucks... just saying.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannard View Post
    The world is changing at a high rate of speed... electronics especially. I fully understand why this is a sting yet I would also hope that you would understand that we have bent over backwards for our customers. We upgraded a RED ONE at FULL price to an EPIC. I'm not quite sure when that was ever done in the history of anything let alone cameras. We provide free upgrades... a 1st in this industry. We upgrade your sensor to the latest for a fraction of what a new camera would cost. There is still not another camera company that has offered this.

    At some point we expect our customers to understand the big picture... and that time is now.

    Jim
    Bizzare, is it not? If the prices were left alone, Mr Kramer would have still been blissfully happy. It's not going to cost him any more (I suppose you could make the argument that it's going to put his future competitors at an unfair advantage, but I don't think that really holds up), but he feels hard done by.

    Where I work we get so many sample TVs that we have to periodically clear them out for next to nothing, so just about everybody in our department has at least one HDTV at home, and most have several. Except for one guy, because: "[he] paid $5,000 for his 28 inch Sony Trinitron TV about 10 years ago..." I guess he wants to get his money's worth.

    About 40 years ago I used to service TVs in customers' homes. I very quickly learned some of the strange quirks of Human nature.
    There was a minimum call charge of $10, (or thereabouts). If you found a customer had a snowy picture simply because his wife had knocked one of the antenna wires while she was dusting, he'd squeal and piss because you wanted to charge him $10 "for re-attaching a wire."
    But if you put in a new valve (tube) that he didn't really need and so add another $2 or so to the bill, then he'd be delighted, because "it only cost him $12!" (Could have been "The. Picture. Tube." Actually our landfills are packed with still perfectly good CRTs. Modern Picture tubes rarely failed, and were usually far from being the most expensive part in a TV!)

    Is that dishonest? Well I don't know; the profit on one small part isn't going to come to much, so it's not like you're defrauding him. If your conscience really bothers you, you can always charge the next customer a bit less than you're entitled to. But he's much happier.

    Then there is the old joke about the company that realized it would be far cheaper to replace all its workers with robots, and rather than having to battle with the unions, they found could still afford to pay them their full wages for staying home and doing nothing, and still make more profit that before.
    "So, basically, you guys don't have to do anything in the factory. All you have to do is come in on Fridays and collect your paycheck. Are there any questions?"
    The union rep was outraged. "What?! You mean we've got to come in ... every Friday?!"
     

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