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  1. #531  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry VerHaar View Post
    Rob - you are obviously not going to be persuaded here. I get that. But you made certain assumptions when you "invested" in your Epic that turned out to be somewhat off base. We all do that - we make "mistakes." But that isn't RED's fault. They are doing what is right for their business and, IMO, for the greatest number of clients and potential clients in the marketplace. Just like one sometimes gets "lucky" when your assumptions about the future pan out better than expected, it can also go the other way. Whatever bets you make, you have to be ready to accept the consequences. It isn't that I (or probably most others here) don't have sympathy for your plight, a lot of us just don't feel like blaming RED is a reasonable response.
    It's not just my plight. It's lots of people. There are many of us here in Montreal who bought Epics this year. Other friends in other cities. When we did that, we looked at Red's past behavior. We trusted they would stay in character. We'll see, maybe they are, maybe not.

    Anyway, I'm not blaming anybody for anything - or upset - yet. I am concerned, and anxious to know what will happen on the 31st. I am not accusing them of anything - I don't know what they will do yet. Maybe neither do they, yet.

    Also, I'm sorry, but I can't feel bad for some student/beginner filmmaker because they "only" can afford a battle-tested Scarlet or used Red One at current prices and not an Epic. That's ludicrous. A Scarlet is a wondrous tool, as is a Red One M even. I'm supposed to be happy to have a revenue cut, because it will help them in their "plight"!? Talk about whiners! I would have killed for something as awesome as that when I was starting out.
     

  2. #532  
    Senior Member Cid J Salcido Uyarra's Avatar
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    for some reason I feel like there's gonna be an Epic in my hands in the near future and I'm seriously gonna have no clue how the f#@& it happened.

    hopefully this is more than just a feeling.

    go RED go

    couple more days
     

  3. #533  
    Senior Member Ivan Kovax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan Spasic View Post
    Rob is not alone at all. There are many Red users I know that don't dare express their legitimate concerns here because of people like Tom Lowe, now a moderator, and some other users alike, who like to insult and ostracize people who give opinions that differ from "awesome!".

    The other reason being is Jim's motto "we reserve to refuse service to anybody with bad attitude", the definition of which is pretty murky. Many livelihoods here depend on the tools we chose to use and in which we are deeply vested in.
    That's true, but at the same time Red is allowed to make business decisions for their own marketplace as they see fit... are they not? If RED doesn't stay competitive, and as a result goes the way of the Thompson Viper, the SI2K, or Pan Am due to poor business strategy, how does that benefit any of us? It is much better for them to stay competitive and piss off a few past clients, but potentially gain a swath of new clients.

    Like I said earlier - there is no way that the price of an Epic could fall to the point of the original RED One, which many of us owned, so I really don't see the valid complaints - we earned money back then and we can earn money now. Sure some of us may make a little less per rental. But a smart businessman has ways of adding value and upselling to his clients.
     

  4. #534  
    Senior Member Ivan Kovax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Ruffo View Post
    So people who say everyone should have access to Epics are coming form a strange place. Why should they?

    Democratization is one thing, but Marxism is another.
    Marxism??
     

  5. #535  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Lange View Post
    I have to admit I find some of this discussion a little weird.

    When I/we decide to purchase something it is because we need it exactly at that point. Typically I try to hold off as long as I possibly can to purchase something.. but there comes a tipping point where YOU HAVE TO PULL THE TRIGGER… There is absolutely no choice.

    I take responsibility for that.

    However, the fact that these cameras systems can become cheaper and more advanced is indeed better for MY business…

    I don’t lose any sleep over that and take responsibility for my actions.

    Obviously stuff (usually) gets cheaper unless it’s a special “introductory” price.. that’s expected… I can’t DO anything about that other than actually do the things we need to do?). ???


    Honestly what can you do?

    Cheers,

    Eric
    Well then you think like an artist, not like a business. I am artistically minded as a DP, but I buy gear like a business - cause I can just rent anything I want so it's all about $$$ and making budgets work and staying afloat.

    So lets say Epic will now rent for $200 a day (lets hope not, but hypothetically.) I will feel like an idiot. Shooting 4 days or so a month (we shoot highly planned short form - that's actually a lot) that's $800 a month. It will take me basically forever to recoup my money. I could have spent $0 and just rented, and done the same work, with the same camera and kept all that money. It has nothing to do with storytelling or art or anything other than simple math.
     

  6. #536  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kovax View Post
    That's true, but at the same time Red is allowed to make business decisions for their own marketplace as they see fit... are they not? If RED doesn't stay competitive, and as a result goes the way of the Thompson Viper, the SI2K, or Pan Am due to poor business strategy, how does that benefit any of us? It is much better for them to stay competitive and piss off a few past clients, but potentially gain a swath of new clients.

    Like I said earlier - there is no way that the price of an Epic could fall to the point of the original RED One, which many of us owned, so I really don't see the valid complaints - we earned money back then and we can earn money now. Sure some of us may make a little less per rental. But a smart businessman has ways of adding value and upselling to his clients.
    Well I hope the down-pricing will be reasonable. I really do.

    Yes Red can do what they want but so can we as customers and loyal supporters. We have the choice to like it or not. I think they want to keep us on their team, even me.
     

  7. #537  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrae Palmer View Post
    I think you are right (regarding Alexa priced higher in the rental market).... but knowing the nature of RED you have to plan accordingly.... RED is not trying to be that type of price gouging company. If you want an elite brand... get an Alexa Studio. For the same reasons you mentioned I'm planning to get a Alexa 4K when it comes out... while also having a few EPICs. Each camera has its merits.
    Fair enough, but I don't think Epic is overpriced now. Alexa, yes, a bit overpriced. But in terms of what? You can still make money with an Alexa.
     

  8. #538  
    Geez, over the years there has been enough business advice given about buying equipment, including from Jim that buying kit in a recession is relatively a high risk venture.
    Its your risk, your decision, your bed.
    Owning kit won't turn you into a good DP and a good DP doesnt necessarily make a good business person.
    Owning kit may get you noticed. Owning state of the art latest gadget will get you in the door only whilst the kit is hard to source.
    A personable and social demour, high craft skills, experience, creativity and above average intelligence are sought after.

    Newcomers will be exploited as they are cheap , but it is no gaurantee the cheap jobs will lead to jobs with better budgets and conditions where you can plan to make a proper living.


    Some were crowing about the democratisation of the industry that comes with lower priced kit.
    Well the democracy has arrived and with it less opportunity to make a living from the indusrty because the jobs get spread more thinly. A true democracy will happen when kids from the wrong side of the tracks have an equal opportunity as those with enough cash to try and buy their way into the industry.

    In this respect lets hope kit gets cheaper to give everyone a fair go.

    Talent, drive and commitment will survive. In the meantime those with enough money to back their aspirations who are finding making a living too hard should exit the industry quickly rather than lower rates.

    With respect, perhaps some who bought a camera hoping it would launch their DP carreer made an irrational connection to Reds marketing that like their camera, their business plan would not become obsolete.



    Mike Brennan
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    Melbourne
     

  9. #539  
    Senior Member Ivan Kovax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Ruffo View Post
    Well I hope the down-pricing will be reasonable. I really do.

    Yes Red can do what they want but so can we as customers and loyal supporters. We have the choice to like it or not. I think they want to keep us on their team, even me.
    Exactly. That is the way a capitalist society works. It is a balancing act - and even you would admit that Red has always taken great care with their customers. And you can understand that Red has not taken this decision lightly, knowing that it would piss off some customers. They have indicated as much.

    So lets all take a deep breath and wait till Red actually makes the pricing announcement. Fingers crossed, you will probably find that it is much ado about nothing.
     

  10. #540  
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    Quote Originally Posted by George A. View Post
    Hi Rob,

    None taken by anyone, I'm sure. My reply didn't aim specifically at you, either.
    In fact, I understand your worries. They are the same worries I have when I buy a Mac Pro. Or an editing software. Or a camera. Their value goes down the minute they arrive at my door.

    But - this is life.

    I guess it's a matter of perspective. Think what you can do with a great camera, or with an affordable editing software. If these are simply tools for higher goals, then you'll be happy. If, on the other hand, you're just trying to make a profit out of them, you're in trouble from the start. That's the nature of this game. It's a risk - in fact, it's a reality - you have to accept, anticipate, and live with it. Did you truly expect the EPIC to hold onto its value for two years? If yes - and I say this respectfully - you were not realistic when you made the decision to buy it.

    At the end of the day, better products for lower prices is what makes our life better. Generally speaking. This is why I personally welcome the price reduction.
    George

    --
    Two no. One yes. If it goes down a little. Fine. 80%? Some crazy amount? Then they lose me as a customer as I will no longer be willing to take that risk again. With these numbers, it has to be a business thing - otherwise man, just rent. Some 4K XDCam Ex 8 bit camera camera is really not my problem. My clients won't care. They see the F3 as for corporates and "expensive weddings" (their words, not mine). This is not competition to Epic, to Scarlet maybe a little.

    Anyway, we'll see I guess.

    Yes. Risk. Of course. Our Red One was a GREAT investment. You do win some and loose some, but in this economy, again, losses hurt pretty bad for small players like my wife and I.
     

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