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  1. #541  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kovax View Post
    Exactly. That is the way a capitalist society works. It is a balancing act - and even you would admit that Red has always taken great care with their customers. And you can understand that Red has not taken this decision lightly, knowing that it would piss off some customers. They have indicated as much.

    So lets all take a deep breath and wait till Red actually makes the pricing announcement. Fingers crossed, you will probably find that it is much ado about nothing.
    Nothing would make me happier.
     

  2. #542  
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    That is all I needed to hear. Thanks for the reassurance Jarred! :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarred Land View Post
    I can tell you right now Scarlet, as it sits , cannot handle the Dragon.

    But as it sits, neither can the Epic.

    One way or another we will make sure Scarlet customers have a pathway to the Dragon.

    It is a complicated problem, but a good problem to have.
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  3. #543  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    A little thought experiment, feel free to correct it if necessary. Just to think of the repercussions of a serious price change.


    14. 8K is the new 4K
    15. Red announce "floating point resolution" (my own term, will trademark :P ) FPR. It is an organic representation of pixels making it adapt much like vector graphics and it does not hold a gridbased image, more an organic look like film all though digital.
    16. Resolution becomes a thing of the past, a digital image is now virtually impossible to differentiate from the real world.
    17. Red announce the virtual reality camera, a virtual production tool for productions made for the new symbiotic mediamerge between games and movies, making Red the leader in new entertainment technology.
    18. Arri, Black Magic, Sony and Canon are now bankrupt, allthough black magic still holds a great deal of post production (which is now done on set or in virtual space).
    19. Virtual Cinema is now indistinguishable from the real world, people get confused on what is real and what is not.
    20. Red announce the A.I cinema production package. An A.I that creates stories by analyzing the internet for human stories. Human creativity takes a hit and the market demand more and more stories created by the A.I for it's "perfection in understanding human behavior".
    21. The A.I becomes self aware.
    22. Red announce that they might have made a mistake.
    23. The Matrix


    ok.... maybe I went a little too far, but I think a price change will have repercussions... :)

    Hahaha. Excellent.
     

  4. #544  
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    This is a shockingly long thread. This is not an issue with shades of grey. It is black and white simple math.

    A product should cost parts + labor + chunk of NRE + fair profit margin.

    More is unethical. Any argument otherwise related to prestige, exclusivity, rental rates, past investments are unethical.

    Price gouging is just price gouging. Don't try to put a pretty face on it.
     

  5. #545  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Ruffo View Post
    No I never slept in a car. I got pro gigs when I was still in high school, and paid my way through University mostly with gigs - no family contacts, just b__lls and what my grandmother calls Moxy. Yes I have worked hard, had music video clients put guns in my face, etc. etc. usual show business stories.

    So what? What if I hadn't? Does that make me less noble? Are only poor people noble and "good"? How much does one have to suffer before being acceptable to you? I know filmmakers who have suffered a lot - and who suck, others who are great, same for those who have not suffered much at all. Who cares?

    I don't post on Cinematographer.com (I probably should, if only to defend Red) but I do frequently read it.

    I agree that the opinion there of Red is unfairly negative and FUD-filled, but there are many other defenders, not just those you mention. But some of these guys are titans I otherwise have tremendous respect for. Instead of demonizing them, I think we should examine how they came about these false beliefs, and try to change them.

    Dirty game? Usual suspects? I have no idea what you are talking about. I really don't. There's no game here, just brutal honesty from me.
    Yes, there's a huge difference between art and business. Normally, the last one brings money but it is made based on formulas already tested before. Reason enough to put me also to sleep in front of the screen in many of those known as blockbusters. :D Demonizing such poor devils? No, literally speaking :P Art is anything you can call it, but an attempt to not follow (necessarily) the business rule. It demands sacrifice most part of the time.

    In any case and as another user quoted by me before pointed out, RED cameras have made this business. People like you want it very closed in order to (self-)protect (in name of) what? Art? No. Just a business of your own. Based on decisions of your own. As you said some pages earlier, based in assumptions you trusted in what? Market? ;-)

    Should we all, RED included, follow your own assumptions based on what Jim and Jarred see the need to change it?
    Should we all, RED customers, risk our own future in assumptions condemned to the failure, as the need of this move by RED proves to be if nothing will be done?

    Because on your own investment, you can respond to your wife (as much as I could get from what you posted back), but we have other under our own umbrella. The same who made a few of us to post in those boards you admit never spent time to defend this camera company project. Others did it, also in your behalf. And nothing changes people when there are corporate interests in-between. To sleep in a car means that. Only for the sake of art, no selfish interests behind. Also true meaning for the word/concept 'indie'.
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  6. #546  
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    Having more Epics and Scarlets in more people's hands, in my view, is a good thing. Because the balance will shift to the user, to the operator, and not to the tool. What we need if we are good redusers, is to be good with handling a Red camera, operating it, managing its workflow. This will be what separates the good from the bad. The more Epics and Scarlets are out there, the more people will get into red, the more support we will have in plugins, in r3d integration in other workflows, etc.

    What I do secretly hope is that, since the new Epic owners are going to get it at a much better price with the free Dragon update deal, that us pre-price reduction guys can get some sort of a reduction on the Dragon update. I'm all good for more Epic owners, more Scarlet owners in the World. It means a World that would embrace, more and more, the Raw workflow, which I think is one of the big breakthroughs of Red. And, of course, of 4K!
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  7. #547  
    Senior Member Milan Spasic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanuel A. View Post
    OK, here's a second one. How many more? Is it possible to fulfill a full hand at least? Because you do a lot of noise. But in the end, I doubt you represent more than 5%... And I'm sorry to say it, but a company doesn't survive with 5% of the customers.

    And about Tom, I've always expressed my opinions as same as others in these boards, even if diverging if necessary (it happens at times ;) and he has always respected my voice.
    You have no clue what percentage Rob represents, if you claim otherwise, you are lying.

    I wish both Tom and yourself commented on the thread topic instead of reacting on "crybabies" and "whiners". Makes you look pretty unprofessional.
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  8. #548  
    Senior Member Eric Lange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Ruffo View Post
    Well then you think like an artist, not like a business. I am artistically minded as a DP, but I buy gear like a business - cause I can just rent anything I want so it's all about $$$ and making budgets work and staying afloat.

    So lets say Epic will now rent for $200 a day (lets hope not, but hypothetically.) I will feel like an idiot. Shooting 4 days or so a month (we shoot highly planned short form - that's actually a lot) that's $800 a month. It will take me basically forever to recoup my money. I could have spent $0 and just rented, and done the same work, with the same camera and kept all that money. It has nothing to do with storytelling or art or anything other than simple math.
    That’s very sweet… you give me far too much credit.

    We are integrating the Scarlet/Epic into larger systems that utilize unique hardware and software systems. What we are working on are indeed relevant to cinematic applications but we are actually looking to sell larger engineered systems in rather different markets.

    Sounds rather cold (doesn’t) it?

    The point being for multi-camera imaging systems if the price point of the cameras start to drop then we can basically engineer higher end systems for less $$$$$$$... so it actually means OUR customers get to do more. Otherwise our potential customers might be less inclined to pull the trigger on more sophisticated systems as they would be prohibitively expensive.

    For folks that build complimentary kit, systems and accessories for the RED “arsenal” of HW this is good news… (as mentioned before) as that means there are more potential customers out there and also more customers out there that can spend a larger fraction on complimentary and 3rd party related products.

    That’s good for some of the ecosystem of businesses that have at least one foot on the RED Bus.

    Sorry that does not work for your situation :-( …

    Cheers,

    Eric

    We had to buy stuff as we had to do extensive testing/design work that could not be put off till later (regardless of price).
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  9. #549  
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    Milan, I'm sorry to disappoint you but the strategy you look like to apply doesn't work on me. On the contrary. Your opinion on here to me worths zero. I don't need your impression for nothing. I think I can say neither Tom. In any case I invite you to quote me where I had used such words ("crybabies" and "whiners") or suchlike. You owe me excuse.

    Anyway, what I know of my professionalism is enough to me and to those with whom I've been in touch (tax department included ;) since 1994 as far as movie business concerns (but I can write back to 1986 extended to other media), even before filmschool, Master in Management in these waters (not camera manufacturing but this business), yes. This ad hominem attack to insinuate me as liar only because I did an estimate only shows the quality (or the lack) of your argument and post. Why don't you open a poll as I suggested once Rob is not doing it? What stops you two to listen the community and have a better estimation of who is with both of you?

    If your noise is that such important towards lobbying this stuff of your own.
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  10. #550  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergio Perez View Post
    What we need if we are good redusers, is to be good with handling a Red camera, operating it, managing its workflow. This will be what separates the good from the bad. The more Epics and Scarlets are out there, the more people will get into red, the more support we will have in plugins, in r3d integration in other workflows, etc.
    Agree...it's incredible how much ignorance about RED workflow still exists. I get tired of the requests for shooting on the Alexa based on the concept that the Alexa footage is easier to manage in post....
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