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  1. #671  
    Senior Member Eric Lange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Ruffo View Post
    That TV is not sold on the same expectation of R.O.I.

    I never said I was basing my entire business on a single camera. Our Epic is an investment among others, bought with money which was very hard to save in this economy in the hope of augmenting revenue from what we charge for our time. We could have not bought it, and rented, and still charged for our time, and still shot on an Epic the same way. No matter what we will charge the same amount for our time. As far as tax write-offs for depreciation, they do not work the same way in Canada and other countries as they do in the U.S.

    Some of you guys - you really should take a business course, like NOW. Yes this business is also is art, but if you make investment vs. rental decisions only with your heart you will go bankrupt or remain a hobbiest forever with a day job.
    Hi Rob…

    Just out of interest what is the tipping point for the new price of Epic that essentially destroys your original business plan?

    I.e. below what price point causes real trouble for you?


    [I have to admit I am very interested in other people’s business plans especially startups. Sometimes it can be a fatal mistake to believe a startup is just a smaller newer version of a larger company. Basically what one learns at Harvard business school tends to only kick in about four years in. I think the business and academia are just starting to ‘fess up and acknowledge the differences between start ups and larger existing corporations. Obviously this knowledge and recognition helps the likelihood of such a transition from start up to capable corporation.]

    With interest,

    Cheers,

    Eric
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  2. #672  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Wernick View Post
    I agree. This is pretty funny. And even if they start giving the cameras away, they don't become worthless. Still an amazing tool at any price.
    Yes an amazing tool. I have ZERO complaints about the quality of my Epic. But I could have rented that same tool to do my shoots, and gotten exactly the same great shots. I don't regret choosing Epic for those shoots, not at all, but maybe in a few days I will regret having bought it rather than just renting. Maybe not. Maybe I will just a bot, but no big deal. It all depends on what Red chooses to do.

    At an accounting level if that camera rents for zero and sells for zero then yes, it is worthless - in that there is no reason to spend money on it. Just go rent it for zero.

    On behalf on many of us here, please Red don't make me feel like an idiot for having become an Epic owner rather than just a renter. At that point you are making a number of customers regret trustingly giving you their money - which can't be too good.

    A pro camera is not like a car, unless you use your car only a few days a week and have viable rental options nearby. A pro camera is not like a cell phone. A pro camera is not like a pastrami sandwich. A camera is not like anything else. Pro camera companies follow their own very different business models and buyers have specific expectations.

    Really my last word.
    Last edited by Rob Ruffo; 10-29-2012 at 12:56 PM.
     

  3. #673  
    - never mind
    Last edited by Mariano T.; 10-29-2012 at 01:03 PM. Reason: -
     

  4. #674  
    Member Peer Landa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Ruffo
    Some of you guys - you really should take a business course, like NOW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Ruffo
    I have ZERO complaints about the quality of my Epic. But I could have rented that same tool to do my shoots, and gotten exactly the same great shots.

    So maybe it's you, Rob, that "really should take a business course, like NOW." Perhaps then you'd have anticipated potential price drops in this ever evolving industry...?

    -- peer
     

  5. #675  
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    RED Team, hopefully we are finally done with the 'lowering your prices is bad for my business' complaint.
    (I heard the same argument when DaVinci Resolve Lite came out and offered unlimited nodes etc., all for free. Folks who were against that and wanted BM to charge full price are not on my team and will never be, so their needs are not my needs.)

    Maybe we can now get on a more constructive train and offer some input for you. My thoughts are simple -

    1. Lowering price on the 'brain' is a silo'ed view and I hope you consider this an opportunity to lower the price on your REDCODE-based 'acquisition solution'
    2. Consider what it takes to get an Alexa and BEYOND config (i.e. added Meizler module) and think in terms of lowering THAT price for ALL (existing and soon-to-be EPIC owners)
    3. Consider offsetting the cost of some of your accessories with the profits off the brain - this will be unfair to those buying non-RED accessories, but fair to those investing in RED solutions. I belong to the latter, so this is favorable to me, may not be to many others.
    4. Don't be reactive to a price slash from the competitors without taking a more strategic viewpoint. Remember they are reacting to you!

    Thanks! And now, its time to disconnect from this discussion and hunker down for Sandy.

    Nikhil K
    Proud owner of EPIC-X "DAZZLE"
    Last edited by Nikhil Kamkolkar; 10-29-2012 at 01:30 PM.
     

  6. #676  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Ruffo View Post
    On behalf on many of us here, please Red don't make me feel like an idiot for having become an Epic owner rather than just a renter. At that point you are making a number of customers regret trustingly giving you their money - which can't be too good.
    Interesting wording, like an idiot, that is how I'll feel aswell when I'm going to explain to the board of our company why I invested in these cameras on the premise that they were a rather safe investment, if it turns out that their value has deflated over night. The Scarlet does not matter if it's given away for free, but the Epic is a pretty darn expensive piece of equipment.
     

  7. #677  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Lange View Post
    Hi Rob…

    Just out of interest what is the tipping point for the new price of Epic that essentially destroys your original business plan?

    I.e. below what price point causes real trouble for you?

    excellent question....i would love to know as well......
     

  8. #678  
    Senior Member Milan Spasic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Whitcomb View Post
    Rob doesnt want to go away, he thinks if he posts the same thing 100 times it will somehow influence a reduced price reduction. If I was RED, Id lower it even more... just to piss him and Milan off who seem to have taken it upon themselves to try and guilt trip RED for their own selfish agendas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peer Landa View Post





    HA -- yes, I agree -- RED should go ahead and piss off Rob & Milan. And while at it, please piss them off royally ;^)

    -- peer
    The reason that nobody but few people bother to express their concerns here are idiotic personal insults like this. It's sad that this also includes moderators.

    Selfish agendas? How about your selfish agenda? You made money on your Epics by buying them early and selling them early. You made your money and you will made more now.
    I'm not in your kind of business, never will be. So speak for yourself and let others give their perspective. The incessant desire to put people down because they have an opposing point of view puzzles me. Sheesh.
    milanspasic.com
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  9. #679  
    Senior Member Elsie N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Ruffo View Post
    Yes an amazing tool. I have ZERO complaints about the quality of my Epic. But I could have rented that same tool to do my shoots, and gotten exactly the same great shots. I don't regret choosing Epic for those shoots, not at all, but maybe in a few days I will regret having bought it rather than just renting. ...

    At an accounting level if that camera rents for zero and sells for zero then yes, it is worthless - in that there is no reason to spend money on it. Just go rent it for zero.

    On behalf on many of us here, please Red don't make me feel like an idiot for having become an Epic owner rather than just a renter.

    ROB! I'VE GOT THE ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEM!!! Sell your camera and become a renter because as you say, rental prices will go down. So you see, if RED lowers the price of the Epic, you win as a renter and new customers win as renters because with the lower price they can rent their cameras out cheaper.

    Why didn't I see this before.
    One camera is a shoot...but four (or more'-) Hydrogens is a prohhhh-duction... Elsie the Wraith
     

  10. #680  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Lange View Post
    Hi Rob…

    Just out of interest what is the tipping point for the new price of Epic that essentially destroys your original business plan?

    I.e. below what price point causes real trouble for you?


    [I have to admit I am very interested in other people’s business plans especially startups. Sometimes it can be a fatal mistake to believe a startup is just a smaller newer version of a larger company. Basically what one learns at Harvard business school tends to only kick in about four years in. I think the business and academia are just starting to ‘fess up and acknowledge the differences between start ups and larger existing corporations. Obviously this knowledge and recognition helps the likelihood of such a transition from start up to capable corporation.]

    With interest,

    Cheers,

    Eric
    We plan to amortize over 1.5 years, selling at 40% retail at end of cycle. So 60% of +- 40K for the cam itself (with media and etc.)over 1.5 years - 20K a year - to break even. So far we have had our Epic since may and a working package since mid-June- 0.4 years and have indeed made less than 10K in rentals during that time (of the cam itself - Amber and I have other gear here, and of course sell our time - but we could do that without owning the Epic). Breaking even is actually losing money because there are insurance costs to be added to that, along with opportunity loss (traditionally this is counted as 15% a year) on the 40K which we could have invested in something else. You do hope for profit in these things. Not just arriving at zero. Otherwise you are working serving customers and answering questions, preparing outgoing kits, etc as well as maintaining and storing your gear for free. I already volunteer at various charities with all the time I can afford for that.

    Already my business plan is not doing that well - but not tragic. Montreal has very much become an Alexa town, for whatever reason, and we have had to rent it even for our own shoots because producers demand it, however foolish they may be. Last year the MX did far better.
     

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