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03-06-2008, 01:13 PM
Actually , why couldn't Red and Assimilate join forces to build an superb all in one editing sollution for the Red. Wounldn't this have been possible and maby a most logical step when building up the camera and grading suites.
I'm not saying there are no other nice options, but none seems to be perfect by now.
03-06-2008, 04:33 PM
red entering the NLE/DI space is something -many- people would love.Originally Posted by sven
however, red would not need to to buy a company as iridas/assimilate/cineform.
All these products have less than 20-30 manyears of r&d which can be easily surpassed on a more modern platform within 24 months.
DI and NLE are -easy- software. to program such is rather 80% transpiration and 20% inspiration.
03-07-2008, 01:22 AM
An NLE is possibly a significantly more complex application than it may appear I think.
FCP is nearly 10 years old and has the backing of Apple and still has some pretty serious inadequacies. Avid on the other hand has a massive pedigree and has become a benchmark in the way NLEs work, but has trouble adapting.
Personally I think the NLE market is fairly well catered to, and I'd rather see RED and assimilate stick to their strengths, at least for the moment.
03-07-2008, 02:41 AM
I think Assimilate has a great starting point to do a powerful NLE. The data management is the core in SCRATCH (Assimilator DI Platform Service layer) and the NLE could be added as a new module. As a SCRATCH owner and user I see the potential of it growing into a "smoke killer". More powerful editing and audio capabilities is a natural progression IMHO.
I think the real secret to SCRATCH is the powerful data managment. It's all NVIDIA GPU based in DI today. The difference lies in the data management and reliability.
03-09-2008, 03:54 PM
I agree. Many DI products meanwhile have integrated editing (as SGO mystika, matrix chrome, dvs clipster) or are teamed with an nle (quantel, or apple color if we want so).
The split between offline editing and di is ending - finally. After years and years on different online/di systems (discreet and sony etc), i would like to see an nle module in scratch as well.
hm. even if discreet would stop any development on smoke, i doubt we will see scratch anywhere near the same class as a smoke in this decade, or even at all.
just some actual smoke features...
audio
Dolby® E coding support
VST Audio plug-in support
Audio mixing capabilities with fully keyframable animation control of audio levels, pans, and EQ during real-time playback
Eight AES/EBU outputs from breakout box with SMPTE/EBU LTC timecode output
Audio soft effects can be created and edited in real time on the timeline
Advanced conform tools for EDLs, AAF, OMF (with audio media)
...
3D
Bicubic and extended bicubic 3D warping in DVE Layers
import of FBX 3D files from Autodesk® 3ds Max®, Autodesk® Maya®, and Autodesk® MotionBuilder™ software, and other 3D applications
Displacement mapping
Grids and guides for accurate positioning and element layouts
True 3D space with full camera control and multiple light sources
...
text / 3D
3D text
Import standard Open Type, Adobe® Type 1 and Apple® TrueType® fonts
Layer, paragraph, and character hierarchy for layout and animation
Independent character adjustment of fill, transparency, shadow, outline, underline, kerning, and axis control, logo import
Spell checking with customizable dictionary
...
roto
Advanced Paint module, including Autopaint with motion tracking
Paint effect brushes include blur, clone, drag, impressionist, recursive, reveal, smear, shade, stamp, warp, and wash effects
Animate, track, and record all brush strokes
...
expressions / script
Create accurate animations based on user-programm
Full library of functions including mathematical, logical, and conditional operators, vectors, and constants
...
system
Burn® background rendering in the timeline, clip library, and modules
Lustre Color Management includes library of display and conversion LUTs and monitor calibration software
Send encoding tasks directly to Autodesk® Cleaner® XL software for expanded Export Media format and codec support
Internal waveform and vectorscope
Mixed resolution desktop and editing timeline
Edit multiple resolutions and formats into a single timeline
Support for 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30, 50, 59.94, or 60 fps
Real-time letterbox and overlays, loop replay, BVB/VBV/VVV previews, field/frame monitoring, full resolution, or proxy monitoring
Support for 32-bit floating -point OpenEXR image files
Support for 12-bit RGB media
Keycode support to conform using scanned film frames (DPX) and telecine log (ALE, FLX, ATN)
Control Smoke in VTR Emulation mode via RS-422 interface
Archives may be stored as files on networked drives, external USB or FireWire drives, on data tapes LTO, DLT, DTF, and others, or (multi) videotape SD and HDTV VTR
Advanced proxy controls. Clip proxies defined by size, resolution, or frame rate
Proxy processing for fast previews
...
editing
Unlimited vertical timeline editing with nested containers for complex visual effects
Soft edits—uncommitted edits, transitions, and speed changes for creative experimentation
Source timeline comparative views for editing source timelines into new programs
Automatic audio/video sync break detection and correction
Re-establish new sync relationships between sources
Fully-animatable speed curves with adjustable interframe mixing and trailing for vari-speeds
Track-to-track, real-time video compare (for example, online/offline) function with split or blend.
Apply soft effects to blank segments (gaps) in the timeline to modify underlying segments
EditDesk search and undo/redo List
...
imho: to catch up with all these function, ignoring all manufacturers climb on the same ladder, ignoring these features are just the tip of the iceberg, seems pretty hard, if not completely impossible for assimilate, at least in this decade.
I therefore doubt that scratch is able to evolve in the next years to a smokekiller, and it never was meant to, i suppose.
scatch is a system for dailes, conform and grading.
smoke is a creative online/offline/editing/conform/finishing/di/vfx/grading system, basicly offering a hybrid of flame, lustre and (rip) edit.
I dont think assimilate will be able to play catch up with smoke/lustre/fire, toxik/combustion/flint/flame/inferno, burn/backburner/cleaner, max/maya/mudbox/motionbuilder, they simply dont have the r&d muscles to do so. Unless, of course, they dramatically lower their price. smoke is going at 80-100K typically, scratch is at ~50K typically, thats not to much difference. If assimilate would decide to enter the massmarket, things could be different (and interesting).
i think it would be great to have a -basic- editing and audio module for scratch, sort of mean, lean and clean. Not for the typical 30 sec short commercial with 64 tracks or the monstrous 126 track VFX extravaganza top-budget videoclip - here smoke is fully in its element and hard to beat, but for the longform 2k hardcut in native redcode.
I however still fail to understand why assimilate didnt used the opportunity to flood the red market with a $$$$ red-specific scratch version. marketing 101. they would probably sell xxxx copies until NAB if the price would be suited to red.
No, thats only the middleclass, as iridas speedgrade, apple color, assimilate scratch, discreet lustre etc.
The high-end systems use dedicated hardware, quite more powerful than even the next coming generations of nvidia. With realtime 4K hardware (as dvs clipster) or clusters for rt 4K (as filmlights baselight) or a mix of those (as quantels iQ architecture).
back to the topic:
it would be -great- if red would offer a very simple redcode/proxy editing interface for redcine, even if totally no bells & whistles, and even if it would be several $$$$. However, once they -finally- open redcode to 3hrd parties, we will probably see lots of nle/editing/di system/software manufacturers supporting them.
03-09-2008, 08:07 PM
Just one point here...
Laguun, I think you're probably not familiar with the data management capabilities that Fredrik is talking about since you are not a SCRATCH owner or artist.
Extensive background data push and pull, scripting via user-added GUI widgets, keycode/timecode/filename integration to XML, ALE, EDL, and many many others...
We *far* outclass speedgrade, color, lustre, iQ, DVS, and pretty much anyone with our data management. That is one part of our feature set that is pretty much best-of-class in the industry.
Best,
Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
03-09-2008, 08:25 PM
The data management is truly second to none. There are even some people using Scratch ONLY for data management.
03-09-2008, 08:56 PM
Hmm ... I don't think I agree with that. I think NLE software are very complicated large pieces of software. And, as somebody who has been doing software programming for more than 2 decades, I can assure you that when you are programming a large piece of software you take very different approaches than regular programming for specialized tasks.
I do not think that complicated software such as FCP or Adobe Premiere CS3 can be simply dismissed as that. Any large piece of software requires tremendous amount of design time.
03-09-2008, 09:27 PM
Joofa has spoken.
03-09-2008, 10:02 PM
Please read my again: I wasnt talking about data management.
Fredrik wrote that "today all DI systems are Nvidia graphics card & cpu" and i did comment that this is the middle class uses regular desktop PC hardware, where as the more powerful 4K realtime systems as DVS Clipster, Baselight Filmlight or Quantel Q-Series all use dedicated designed hardware and/or clustering.
While i agree that your background data management seems more powerful than apple color and iridas speedgrade, i would be pretty careful mentioning dvs and discreet here.
in the case of discreet, you will find that basic discreet systems have a crossplatform background rendering system and data echanging system (backburner), which integrates lustre with 3D applications as discreet max/maya, editing/vfx systems as smoke/fire (or fcp xml, or edl, or aaf, or omf etc), di/vfx systems as flame/inferno or batch transcoding (as media cleaner) or rendering (as burn).
If you look at the networked database driven data management system of Toxik however, i think you will easily find that discreet has some years advantage here for sure. Several users can work on the same project at the same time, autosync or hot updating, the database tracks all individual processes of any user, logs them, allows multi-user versioning, master user selections etc.
dvs on the other hand offers a nice free data management softwares: spycer is free to use and a nice addition to most Di systems, also scratch is suppose.
Would be great if assimilate would also offer some parts of its data management functionality as free tool.
The DVS integration with discreet and digital fusion in the background is nice as well, and so are the background versioning functions of the moviestreams.
For certain scenarios that might be, for other however backburner, toxik or clipster might be more useful i suppose.
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