Then they're not looking very closely, or on a professional monitor. And they probably don't have much movement or diagonal lines in the material.Originally Posted by ChrisBurket
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03-09-2008, 06:53 AM
Then they're not looking very closely, or on a professional monitor. And they probably don't have much movement or diagonal lines in the material.
03-09-2008, 07:01 AM
Difference is HUGE in my opinion.
03-09-2008, 07:45 AM
Couple of thoughts..
Assimilate should contact 'weirdcrew'... he is a serious guy and they should try and facilitate his interest..
The world is full of people who can't see, or articulate, differences... I don't worry so much anymore... if forced I'll take money of them in blind tests (always good fun) but the arguments are otherwise impossible to win (without way too much effort)
External scopes are the way.. Software scopes are very very difficult to trust and the CPU/GPU demands mean it is not worth it... (tektronics make great easy kit)
Regards
Michael
03-09-2008, 08:03 AM
You should worry if you're trying to complete a project that's being sold to a major (or even minor) distributor, because the people who work in QC facilities do see the differences. And once reported, those differences need to be addressed. Which can get very expensive if they're inherent in the processing used. And which can get very embarrassing if fixing them is going to require more time than you have to deliver an acceptable version.
03-09-2008, 09:56 AM
Before I go into any of the other stuff - first of all - I am really sorry that your first experience was such a bad one. Please contact me offlist, or PM me your email address and I'll try and make it right. If nothing else, it sounds like the SCRATCH facility you chose could use a little bit of training for their artists.
Depending on what build you used, this is probably due to RSX files or QT Ref files in the load directories. It was a very well-documented bug, has been 100% fixed, was explained on the SCRATCH forum, the Beta SCRATCH forum, and in the Release Notes. If your artist wasn't aware of this and was doing a RED job, then they really aren't keeping up very well.
Sorry you don't like the UI. Unless you were the artist, does that really matter?
That's because the Reference movies are generated from an OSX Quicktime component, and SCRATCH runs on XP. Chase, again - sorry about your experience - but this is very basic, Operator 101 stuff.
That's because SCRACTCH doesn't have an onboard vectorscope. It has a histogram. If you want to use a scope, then use a real scope. Software scopes *always* take dangerous shortcuts and are a bad use of CPU/GPU cycles for a realtime program.
There are two places to set sharpening - one as a product of R3D metadata, and one as a sharpen filter in the color section (MATRIX) of SCRATCH. Details and Noise are part of R3D metadata.
To do what you want, Copy and Paste All.
Right click in the Player section, and go to LUT. Load the RedLog or PD Log 685 LUT.
This is most likely a product of how the Assemble was done. There are lots of ways to screw up a conform if you're not very familiar with the Edit Module.
Right now, the tracker/stabilizer only works on the Full Rez decode.
Then something was *really* wrong, either with system setup, or processing options.
Chase,
Again - let me apologize for what sounds like an awful first experience. But to be fair, it really sounds like you had a *very* inexperienced SCRATCH operator. Most of the stuff you list here is really really basic stuff. Please contact me offlist. I'd like to do a couple of things here:
1) Find out what facility you used. Having an artist that untrained does nobody any good. I want to arrange for them to get more training, because yours was just one session. I'm sure there are others.
2) Hook you up with several LA facilities that are doing RED work with SCRATCH day in and day out successfully with happy clients.
(your sig says you're in LA...)
Best,
Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
lucas at assimilateinc dot com
03-09-2008, 10:01 AM
Fred,
Sorry about that. I get about 200 - 250 emails a day, and as hard as I try, some things (and people) do slip through the cracks. It's not that I "never bothered to come back" to you, it's that my organizational abilities sometimes fail me.
Since you seem to be on the list today, drop me an email and I'll get you what you need in terms of info.
Best,
Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
lucas at assimilateinc dot com
03-10-2008, 06:53 PM
Lucas,
Thank you for your detailed response.
Actually, my colorist, who was considering buying a Scratch system, called you that day but couldn't reach you. I'll PM you in a bit. In short, not being able to afford my own Scratch installation or a full priced rental at a major facility, I went someplace less expensive. I grant that some of these problems I complained about would have been solved by a highly trained (and expensive) operator, but for me the promise of the RED camera was inexpensive in-house post, and I'm finding that to simply not be the case.
mmost, Mark (Offhollywood), yes, this facility had not done a RED project before which is why I was not having to pay $500/hr to use the system. And toward the end, as the operator couldn't figure out the problems, I started digging through the manuals to try to figure it out myself. We did remove the .rsx files and that still did not eliminate the crashing.
Fredrick, we started off with a trained Scratch operator in a facility that does 2K DI every day. We were to conform my FCP edit, grade it, and output DPX files. This is how I define "online session." The Scratch operator, though, was not a colorist and my colorist was not a Scratch operator. The fact that we had to bail on the grading due to lack of a vector scope was actually the least of my frustrations.
The issue of stuck frames (on top of having to manually remove 3 QT proxies for every take we shot) was want sent me through the roof.
We were using version 3.8, the latest build we could get our hands on as of March 7, 2008. We expected those bugs to be, as you say, 100% fixed, but they weren't. Going through and removing all of the QT proxies (over a thousand files, some of which we're still using in FCP) just to load layers in Scratch seems like a lot of prep work for a professional tool.Depending on what build you used, this is probably due to RSX files or QT Ref files in the load directories. It was a very well-documented bug, has been 100% fixed, was explained on the SCRATCH forum, the Beta SCRATCH forum, and in the Release Notes. If your artist wasn't aware of this and was doing a RED job, then they really aren't keeping up very well.
I'm not saying you won't get this fixed eventually, I'm saying that as of today, taking the footage off of the camera and trying to load it into Scratch without special prep causes Scratch to crash. I think that's unacceptable for a professional tool that is supposed to be the gold standard for RED.
No, we got the movie to play on its own (it was encoded using a DV codec). It's just that the operator couldn't manage to get the split screen to show the reference movie in the reference tray, and despite searching both the "complete" manual and the "users guide" I couldn't figure it out either. Every time we went into split screen we just got two copies of the timeline.That's because the Reference movies are generated from an OSX Quicktime component, and SCRATCH runs on XP.
I completely accept this explanation. I'm sorry that my frustration with the whole session got a little out of hand here. I agree that the facility should have had an outboard vector scope. In fact I believe they did but it had been moved to another system for some reason.That's because SCRACTCH doesn't have an onboard vectorscope. It has a histogram. If you want to use a scope, then use a real scope. Software scopes *always* take dangerous shortcuts and are a bad use of CPU/GPU cycles for a realtime program.
We loaded the footage into construct 1, loaded the EDL, and hit Assemble...This is most likely a product of how the Assemble was done. There are lots of ways to screw up a conform if you're not very familiar with the Edit Module.
There shouldn't be a way to get a clip to be stuck even on purpose, let alone by accident. And if there is, again I'd say this is a UI issue.
I agree that a bunch of my complaints were grumbles about the system being not user friendly and that would be fixed with training, but this is not one of those. This was, even when we brought in the Scratch expert, not something we could fix and was a real show stopper.
Yes, I expected that was the case, and for those of you who chimed in that they use it successfully every day, please take note. I'm not trying to trash Scratch in general, I'm just pointing out the several ways I had problem using Scratch in handling REDCODE files.Right now, the tracker/stabilizer only works on the Full Rez decode.
As I said, I'm more than willing to believe it was this specific computer, which was set up primarily to conform and grade 2K DPX files and not to do heavy duty transcoding.Then something was *really* wrong, either with system setup, or processing options.
To be fair, yes, that is true, we had an newly trained operator and me, completely untrained, in a facility that had not done a RED project before. I don't want to give anyone the impression that they'll go to a $500/hour professional studio and have all these problems. I do want to say, though, that to those who thought RED post would be cheap and easy, so far it's not.
03-10-2008, 07:05 PM
Scratch works fine. It sounds like you were doing the operating ? That's like getting into the cockpit of a 747 and complaining that it crashed when you tried to fly it.
I have done several projects with it. The last one was in fact a 35mm 4K DI anamorphic job. I graded using 2K proxies and had multiple windows going. I did a feature last year (on film) and stablized many shots that weren't even menat to be stablized (no markers)
It all comes down to the operator.
There's a reason you pay top dollar sometimes. It's actually because you'll get the job done faster (and better) than if you try to take shortcuts.
jb
03-10-2008, 09:06 PM
Hey Chase,
We have a support email alias, a SCRATCH forum, a Beta SCRATCH forum, several local employees in LA, and several other employees worldwide that monitor support and the SCRATCH forums. I'm glad that he thought to call me, but if that's where he stopped...
Chase, I just checked our build history and the build that 100% fixed this issue came out on Feb. 27, and was released publicly to our beta sites on the 28th. If your artist/facility had contacted support, they could have gotten the correct build, and you wouldn't have had these issues. Either that, or they *did* have the correct build and didn't know how to use it.
You know this takes about 5 seconds in Windows Explorer with Search and Move, yes?
Again, I really am sorry for your experience, but this was fixed 10 and released 10 days before your session.
1) Player -> Settings -> Dual View.
2) Once Dual View is turned on, open the Tray and select the Clip you want to see in the right-hand side.
3) Settings -> select "Reference" in the Dual View setting.
It is on page 98 of the 3.5 Users' Guide, under the "Verify Conform" section. Our PDFs are indexed and searchable, and you can find it by searching for "Conform," "Dual View," "Tray," or "Quicktime."
Sorry dude... I can't see your point on this one. :)
With due respect, I'd say that based on the apparent level of skill of your operator, I don't think it's a UI issue.
I really do get that... you're not bashing, you just had a really bad experience. No harm, no foul.
To be equally fair, if you had one newly trained operator and one completely untrained operator, ummm.... how easy did you expect it to be?? : )
I got your PM - thanks. Will respond shortly.
Best,
Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
03-10-2008, 09:59 PM
I told the facility that Scratch was being updated weekly if not daily and to please install the very latest version on 3/7. When we had initial problems loading the footage I checked with the tech (called him at home) and he verified the he did upgrade it on 3/7 and on further inspection, we could see dates of 3/7 on some of the files in the Scratch program folder. I confirmed again today that it was version 3.8, build 443.
If I had to guess, it would be that they didn't want to install "beta" software as they are not primarily a RED house. They are primarily a film house.
As for the render speed, I've confirmed it was a dual core AMD 64 bit CPU running some kind of nVidia QuadroFX video card, though probably not the latest.
No, I didn't know that. How do you put them back when you're done?You know this takes about 5 seconds in Windows Explorer with Search and Move, yes?
I know they're indexed and searchable, I spent a lot of time searching them. :-) The operator was under the impression you had to select the reference before switching to what he called "split view", which is what I wasn't finding in the "complete" reference guide.
OK, so I guess the operator was greener than I was led to believe.
I was prepared for it to take 4 hours to do what a top pro would do in 30 minutes. I was not prepared to spend 8 hours and not come out with anything useful to show for it.
Honestly, my goal for this session was to render 6 minutes of ungraded footage to send to the VFX house. Everything else was meant to be testing and learning. At the rate it was rendering, though, it would have taken over 12 hours to render once we got the render started, and when I canceled the render I guess it deleted the rendered files because there was only one in the output folder despite the display showing that there were a lot rendered.
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