My expectations for Scarlet

[Johnbutler]

You know, I've never posted here before but I've read these forums a lot and I think most of you are expecting way too much out of scarlet. I strongly doubt (to the point of practically considering it as a fact, it's just not realistic, but neither was red one at first) that it will be 4k, have interchangeable lenses (big surprise if it does. Not even a Pentax auto 110 can fit in your pocket), or a 35mm sensor. Heck, it could very easily not even have a 16mm sensor! I sense a lot of people will be disappointed, unless red does what some are expecting and has something like an empty shell and imaginary specs at NAB (I guess that would explain why Jim wouldn't say anything more, if there was nothing more to say).
What I expect would be a midsize sensor, 1080p at the most, possibly a compact flash drive or something similar, possibly with a new special codec designed for it, and (hard to think of it coming from such a company) A fixed, sigma designed lens. The price is very hard to imagine, because it is assuredly small, however luxury compact electronics have never been cheap, so I don't think we should be expecting a $300 Wondercamera (although it doesn't seem to make sense that red would make an exorbitantly priced pocket camera, it DID say professional, not consumer). Just my 2 cents. (and sorry if my abuse of parentheses annoys)

[Steve White]

Given that Red chose to go with a s35 sensor, I would not at all be surprised if they go for a s16 sensor on Scarlet. The company is digital cinema, and if they can maintain the tie to film aspect ratios and sensor sizes, they probably will. It's a little bit of a crap-shoot though. Developing a new sensor could be costly. If bulk ordering of Mysterium comes with a significant reduction in unit cost, I could see s35... otherwise it will be a new & cheaper sensor.

I also think they will implement RedCODE RAW on Scarlet - and that it will be the same format as available on the Red One. Developing a new codec and a new workflow would be a waste of resources - especially given the current state of Red One workflow.

Shooting to compact flash will probably be the only option (since restricting options allows a price drop). It is easily the most compact of the available formats, and the most widely available.

As for lenses - this is another huge hit against s35 sensors. Not only are the s35 lenses large, they're more expensive than anyone seems predicting to pay for the Scarlet body. I'd be happy with a good wide angle fixed zoom, but I'd be happier with multiple lens options.

I think all of the proposed technologies are possible, but the costs vary significantly. Jim has stated he expects to sell many more Scarlets. To me this means it's at a significantly lower price point that Red One. He's also stated it's "Pro" - which means it can be priced higher than a consumer device.

Figure out that price point, and you can start doing the math on what the technology will be.

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Given that Red chose to go with a s35 sensor, I would not at all be surprised if they go for a s16 sensor on Scarlet.

Or 2/3 inch.

As for lenses - this is another huge hit against s35 sensors. Not only are the s35 lenses large, they're more expensive than anyone seems predicting to pay for the Scarlet body.

True for a longer-range (10x or more), fixed f-stop zoom. Those things can weigh more than 15 pounds. But if the user were OK with, say, Nikon primes or a DSLR zoom with a diminishing f-stop (as is the case with most DSLR zooms), particularly a shorter zoom, then an S35-sized sensor and a lens mount (rather than a fixed lens) might make sense.

I think all of the proposed technologies are possible, but the costs vary significantly. Jim has stated he expects to sell many more Scarlets.

This seems to argue against it being a niche camera, like a crash-cam, or a camera that has little autonomous functionality but must be tethered to a Red One.

To me this means it's at a significantly lower price point that Red One. He's also stated it's "Pro" - which means it can be priced higher than a consumer device.

But Red One costs somewhere between a tenth and a fifth of competing devices. Without the huge overhead of Sony or Panasonic, yet with sufficient economies of scale (i.e., many more Scarlets than Ones), Jannard may have found a way to accomplish a similar feat with Scarlet -- to produce a truly professional product at a near-consumer price.

[Bing Bailey]

I believe scarlet will be a slight reduced feature set ala 2k and its all about economies of scale. if they can mass produce scarlet with the s35 sensor scaled to 2k that will bring down the cost of the sensor for RED ONE and increase the profit margins. right now they sell the 18 to 50mm glass. if they mass produce a fixed zoom lens and have that as part of the package it'll bring those prices down. obviously all the same coding work ala workflow will be used. no use reinventing the wheel they just reinvented :) and record to CF will probably be the only option.

[Lawrence Bansbach]

I believe scarlet will be a slight reduced feature set ala 2k and its all about economies of scale. if they can mass produce scarlet with the s35 sensor scaled to 2k that will bring down the cost of the sensor for RED ONE and increase the profit margins. right now they sell the 18 to 50mm glass. if they mass produce a fixed zoom lens and have that as part of the package it'll bring those prices down.

I don't think you should ask for an S35 sensor and a nonremovable zoom. The lens will either be too big and heavy (thereby contravening the "pocket" part of pocket professional) or too short (and therefore of limited utility). The 18- to 50-mm zoom costs $6,500, and I doubt that itsprice would ever drop enough for camera with lens to be priced in the $2,500-$10,000 range that most here have predicted. Plus it's too limited a zoom range to have to be stuck with it -- which you would be if it were nonremovable.

[Luis de la Cerda]

If scarlet's lens is fixed, I'd rather have a very wide end instead of a long range. This has always been small camcorders' achilles heel. Wide adapters suck. I think a 24-70mm 35mm (full frame) still range equivalent for whichever sensor size it ends up with would be awesome. It would be a range similar to the Canon 6x wide zoom for the XL-H1, which is the one I use the most. And 16-35 would be awesome, but I may be getting carried away. For those who wish for long lens options, tele- adapters are usually much better than wide adapters. Another option would be to sell different scarlet models with different fixed zoom lenses or interchangeable lenses.

My .02 :)

[Bob Gruen]

If they can mass produce scarlet with the s35 sensor scaled to 2k that will bring down the cost of the sensor for RED ONE and increase the profit margins.

Exactly...

Right now they sell the 18 to 50mm glass. if they mass produce a fixed zoom lens and have that as part of the package it'll bring those prices down. obviously all the same coding work ala workflow will be used. no use reinventing the wheel they just reinvented :) and record to CF will probably be the only option.

This would be a bad decision, in my opinion. 18 to 55 is nowhere near a complete solution. Besides, the 35mm adapter cottage industry has proven that low budget indie filmmakers are willing to buy 35mm lenses, and we've figured out how to do it on the cheap. I would easily trade in my HVX / Redrock rig for a 1080/24P camera that actually gets 1080 lines of resolution and has a workable workflow. I'd be willing to go $12K on such a camera, as long as it was a complete solution for $12K.

Bob

[Lawrence Bansbach]

I would easily trade in my HVX / Redrock rig for a 1080/24P camera that actually gets 1080 lines of resolution and has a workable workflow. I'd be willing to go $12K on such a camera, as long as it was a complete solution for $12K.

On the Pro Video Coalition site, Adam Wilt posted the results of some tests he conducted that roughly compared the Red One with the Sony F23 and EX1. His results showed what has been mentioned here before but seems to be quickly forgotten: the Mysterium is nominally a 4K sensor, but because of the Bayer mask, the result is in effect about 2.4K to 2.5K, which isn't bad. He deduced that at 2K, the effective result is about 1.25K, or about what you'd get from three 1,280 x 720 sensors. So, for people expecting a 2K sensor on Scarlet, the spatial resolution may not be as good as what you might expect from a three-chip 1080p camera.

When you say $12K for a complete solution, do you mean including lens(es), viewfinder or LCD, battery, and storage? If so, I think it unlikely if the sensor is S35, S16, or even 2/3-inch. At those sensor sizes, the lens alone would likely cost thousands and (unless extremely limited in range) would need to be removable in order for the camera to be considered pocket-ish.

[Johnbutler]

You have to remember, it's been established that this camera Is NOT a mini red. So I don't think it makes sense to expect that.