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Jarred Land
04-13-2015, 02:12 AM
http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1428947673.jpg

http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon

$34,500 Brain + Media Bay


Trade-in credit amount:

- If you already own a EPIC CF DRAGON, your trade-in credit towards WEAPON CF is $22,500 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit. If you purchase Epic CF After NAB
begins, your trade in credit is $20,000 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit

- If you already own a EPIC-M DRAGON your trade-in credit towards WEAPON CF is $17,500 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit. If you own Epic-M Dragon After NAB
begins, your trade in credit is $15,000 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit

- If you already own EPIC-X DRAGON, your trade-in credit towards WEAPON CF is $15,500 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit. If you own Epic-X Dragon After NAB
begins, your trade in credit is $13,000 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit.

- If you own SCARLET-X DRAGON before NAB, credit towards WEAPON is $5000 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit. If you own Scarlet-X Dragon After NAB
begins, your trade in is $2500 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit .

Your $5000 accessory credit will remain until you are ready to upgrade to Weapon, and is not limited to NAB week.

Optionally, if you wish to purchase Weapon new ( not upgrade your camera ) you will receive the $5000 accessory credit, but only if you purchase the new Weapon during NAB.

- Simultaneous R3D and Pro-res recording in-camera

- Records R3D and scaled version of same footage as ProRes. For example 6K master, and 2K ProRes up to 60fps.

- Files recorded simultaneously to same media

- Consistent naming and internally accurate timecode (easier workflow than external recorder)

- Apple ProRes 4444XQ, 4444, 422HQ, 422 or 422LT

- Tethered streaming ProRes - ProRes recorded proxy can be sent to Ethernet, while R3D master sent to media

- 17x17x17 3D LUTs

-Faster Data throughput. Up to 50% higher data rates to card. Existing RED MINI-MAG 512GB cards are already ready for transfer speed increase

- Dual monitor ports on Brain for EVF/LCDs.

- Automatic sensor calibration. Select exposure times from 1/8000s to 1/8s without calibrating. Wider operating band for sensor temperature

- Better thermal management, Lower fan noise with no front fans and more stable operating temperature

- Integrated top-plate

- Integrated wireless control connectivity

- Interchangeable and removable I/O options with accessible port placement.

- Interchangeable OLPFs with smart detection of which OLPF is installed.

- Monitor flip and mirror on all outputs, including SDI.

- Integrated dual digital front microphones

luigivaltulini
04-13-2015, 02:12 AM
FUCK ;) THE beautiful beast Weapon :)

Nick Fury
04-13-2015, 02:14 AM
Hi Jarred,

what will the CF pathway allow over the non CF upgrade pathway?

Thank you very much

fury

Cameron Currier
04-13-2015, 02:14 AM
Holy crap...

Erich Roland
04-13-2015, 02:15 AM
magnesium!

Zeb B
04-13-2015, 02:17 AM
Dragon Monochrome upgrade path?

I've been off the board here for a bit gents . . . bring me up to date. Does the Weapon have a new sensor or is it a form factor upgrade?

Current lens mounts work?

Ship date?

Oliver_G
04-13-2015, 02:17 AM
The long wait is over!!!!!!

Ketch Rossi
04-13-2015, 02:18 AM
Magnesium... You guys made the impossible possible!!

Patrick Tresch
04-13-2015, 02:20 AM
- 17x17x17 3D LUTs


Does it have some limitations VS the Carbon one? On the carbon it reads - 33x33x33 3D LUTs
Do you have any chart showing the differences?

Pat

BigLu
04-13-2015, 02:21 AM
Redefining the game.

So many impressive marks, R3D and ProRes alone is a killer move for my NFL work.

Karel Šimůnek
04-13-2015, 02:23 AM
This looks incredibly amazing and powerful! 6K RAW and 2K ProRes at 60fps together? Shit! This really is the WEAPON! Can't wait for the specs for R3D at 6K only. 200fps at 6K??? :w00t:

Jonas Klittmark
04-13-2015, 02:23 AM
Is this the "standard" weapon version?

Nick Morrison
04-13-2015, 02:24 AM
Will there be a stage 2 upgrade where Epic Dragon owners could keep their Epics?

Antoine MARTEAU
04-13-2015, 02:25 AM
Outstanding spec, outstanding trade-in program...
Thank you guys!
And bravo.

Antoine

Demetri Zuev
04-13-2015, 02:26 AM
So Dragon-X body only is $24.000 right now

Weapon Magnesium body only is $34.500

$15.500 credit for Dragon-X means $20.000 on top when you trade in.

Selling Dragon and buying a new Weapon seems a lot less expensive then...

The only question is availability of regular Weapons in the store

David Litchfield
04-13-2015, 02:26 AM
So are all the frame rates halved vs the CF or is it just when dual recording of prores?

jacob.schwarz
04-13-2015, 02:26 AM
4K 1000fps?

Mike P.
04-13-2015, 02:28 AM
Is Magnesium the new "Regular"? What's the weight of this and the CF Weapon?

Adam Johnson
04-13-2015, 02:28 AM
Yeah, seems like selling Dragon outright would be the best option. Hell I'll buy someones Dragon X body for $15,500!



So Dragon-X body only is $29.000 right now

Weapon Magnesium body only is $34.500

$15.500 credit for Dragon-X means $20.000 on top when you trade in.

Selling Dragon and buying a new Weapon seems a lot less expensive then...

The only question is availability of regular Weapons in the store

Brent Carter
04-13-2015, 02:29 AM
Will there be a stage 2 upgrade where Epic Dragon owners could keep their Epics?

No.

Mike Nagel
04-13-2015, 02:30 AM
Do I understand this correctly that Dragon-X is evaluated at 15.5K ?

Phil Holland
04-13-2015, 02:30 AM
Is this the "standard" weapon version?

Yep. This is the standard Weapon. Carbon Fiber Weapon gets you a bit more processing power and ability.



The only question is availability of regular Weapons in the store

Upgrades and new Carbon models will be happening first. That is if nothing has changed.

Sergio Perez
04-13-2015, 02:30 AM
This is the CF version upgrade, right? How about the regular? As a non CF Dragon owner coming from MX, 18K is just too much for me, I can't do it... I really, really wish there's a "Regular" weapon that would be the natural upgrade path for this "penniless sitar player"...

Quentin Brown
04-13-2015, 02:30 AM
Looking forward to hearing further details. LUT's are interesting - especially combined with the pro res output. Hopefully we can burn in the LUT to the pro res?
What about the current RMD metadata based RAW controls? Are they still present? Can we choose where to put them in the processing pipeline, before or after the LUT? (Presuming we can combine the two)
Any ACES support in live looks planned?
Can we send different looks and LUTs to independently to individual outputs?
Will the engine driving the LUTs allow for live updating so it can be manipulated in the same was as HDLinks, Fuji IS mini, FSI 's new CFE3 enabled monitors like the BM 250 etc. with Livegrade?

Christoffer Glans
04-13-2015, 02:31 AM
So Dragon-X body only is $29.000 right now

Weapon Magnesium body only is $34.500

$15.500 credit for Dragon-X means $20.000 on top when you trade in.

Selling Dragon and buying a new Weapon seems a lot less expensive then...

The only question is availability of regular Weapons in the store


Yeah, I would be able to sell my recent upgraded Dragon for very close to the new price for it (like $20 000) and then it will only be around $14 500 for Weapon, not $19 000 as this trade in would be.
Or am I missing something? Seems odd

Nick Morrison
04-13-2015, 02:32 AM
No.

Gotcha.

Jonas Klittmark
04-13-2015, 02:32 AM
So Dragon-X body only is $29.000 right now

It is $24,000 no?

But either way you're right, $19k to upgrade from Epic Dragon is a lot. More than selling the Epic Dragon and buying the Weapon, unless our Epic Dragons just dropped a lot in value.

Joel Arvidsson
04-13-2015, 02:33 AM
Whats the max fps in 6k hd and 5k hd?
Is the dynamic range approved?
S/N?
Physical control panel?
Batteri times?

Ok I bet the specs is up soon.

Freya
04-13-2015, 02:35 AM
What is the max resolution in pro res? Can it do 4K Pro-Res? UHD? 6K?

Freya

Kemalettin Sert
04-13-2015, 02:35 AM
Whoa how come my dragon lost %50 worth ?

Demetri Zuev
04-13-2015, 02:36 AM
It is $24,000 no?

But either way you're right, $19k to upgrade from Epic Dragon is a lot. More than selling the Epic Dragon and buying the Weapon, unless our Epic Dragons just dropped a lot in value.

My bad, I looked at the M version, it is $24.000 indeed

Drazen Stader
04-13-2015, 02:36 AM
everything is great and nice…except 2 things

1. can we hear something about the fps on the weapon…i am sure this interests a lot of folks on this forum
2. the upgrade path for current user seems quite pricey don't you agree? when selling your own stuff pays more than the upgrade itself something is missing

just my initial thoughts

Hans von Sonntag
04-13-2015, 02:36 AM
These are made of Magnesium and the wheel nuts arte made of Titanium.:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/redfox/attach/jpg.gif

Proved combo. Last on my car since 44 years now.



Hans

Jonas Klittmark
04-13-2015, 02:39 AM
Whoa how come my dragon lost %50 worth ?

I wonder if these numbers have typos in them. A Scarlet Dragon that has been purchased for $19k ($9.5k+$9.5k) is now valued at $2.5k?

And there is mix-up of "credit is" and "price is".

Mendes Nabil
04-13-2015, 02:41 AM
Can't wait for the "primordial" specs: Color science & low light capabilities..
Seems like Epic and Scarlet line will be seriously fall in term of prices..

Adam Johnson
04-13-2015, 02:41 AM
I purchased a brand new Dragon X in December and it is already obsolete and worth much less. That is technology for yah. Guess I'll go F myself now lol


Whoa how come my dragon lost %50 worth ?

sam karr
04-13-2015, 02:41 AM
I wonder if these numbers have typos in them. A Scarlet Dragon that has been purchased for $19k ($9.5k+$9.5k) is now valued at $2.5k?

And there is mix-up of "credit is" and "price is".

I agree, there is something unclear. Red would not push people to upgrade scarlets to dragon to finally tell them it's worth 2500$.

Björn Benckert
04-13-2015, 02:41 AM
Yeah, I would be able to sell my recent upgraded Dragon for very close to the new price for it (like $20 000) and then it will only be around $14 500 for Weapon, not $19 000 as this trade in would be.
Or am I missing something? Seems odd

Are you sure you can sell it for 20k usd?
That was maybe possible yesterday, tomorrow I think your calculations need to be a bit different.

Nick Morrison
04-13-2015, 02:41 AM
I wonder how much better a Weapon Magnesium is than an Epic Dragon..as far as fps, compression, etc?!

Mike 'Fireman' Ross
04-13-2015, 02:44 AM
I'll wait to hear more, about interfaces (How do we get XLRs without buying a $4k module, again???) and Brick power options etc, but I think I'll pass for now, sorry.

Bottom line is, it's a ~$30k upgrade for an Epic Dragon customer like me. I say $30k because my 512GB standard Redmags are now junk - obsolete. That's the deal-breaker. If I could use my existing media, it's a $20k upgrade and if there were enough upsides I'd spring for it. As it is, I just don't see the compelling case. I'll sleep on it and see if I feel different in the morning :-)

If I was buying from scratch, things would be different; that's an attractive price point for entry into the top end of the Red ecosystem for new owners. I do agree with the other comments that selling my Dragon and just ordering a Weapon looks like a much better value proposition. It'll be very interesting to see what happens to Dragon values... of course we can't *sell* our Dragons until we get shipping notifications on Weapon.

Mike

Ryan Sauve
04-13-2015, 02:44 AM
Whoa how come my dragon lost %50 worth ?

This. Sounds more like a Best Buy trade-in program, not the traditional RED one.

Nick Morrison
04-13-2015, 02:44 AM
Are you sure you can sell it for 20k usd?
That was maybe possible yesterday, tomorrow I think your calculations need to be a bit different.

And how much for an Epic MX and Scarlet MX? As those prices drop, both cams may provide superb value on used market...

Will Wernick
04-13-2015, 02:45 AM
I love my new scarlet dragon. Worth the upgrade. But, the trade (the reason I pulled the trigger) in seems surprisingly low. Maybe I am missing something.

Rohan B
04-13-2015, 02:45 AM
ALL the prores, lighter body and all the other techs are cool, but what about the basic things like improvement in picture quality,Dr, sensitivity, latitude, better colors and higher fps at full resolution??????????

Joel Arvidsson
04-13-2015, 02:46 AM
http://www.red.com/store/new-releases
Its starting to fill up with new items.

Tonaci Tran
04-13-2015, 02:47 AM
it is telling me "You currently have no serial numbers eligible for this program. "

Alexander Christ
04-13-2015, 02:48 AM
same here "You currently have no serial numbers eligible for this program. "

Baptiste Leleu
04-13-2015, 02:48 AM
Same thing here.

scott pommier
04-13-2015, 02:48 AM
http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/icons/icon1.png Today, 10:47 AM

it is telling me "You currently have no serial numbers eligible for this program. ".


same

Charles Bergquist
04-13-2015, 02:49 AM
Maybe I'm not understanding this, but my Epic Dragon with Mini Mag SSD and Canon mount is only worth 15,500.00 in trade in? Scarlet Dragon owners only get 5000.00. It must be late and I'm not reading this right.

Adam Johnson
04-13-2015, 02:49 AM
So if my math skills are correct, $19k to upgrade to Weapon Magnesium from Dragon X IF you own before NAB.

Justen Nguyen
04-13-2015, 02:50 AM
Magnesium?! Me likey.

Charles Bergquist
04-13-2015, 02:50 AM
Plus buying all new modules to get SDI / HDMI out of the camera.

sam karr
04-13-2015, 02:51 AM
This can't be correct. I guess it would be nice to have some better explanation about the price before it goes crazy with the misunderstanding.

Frederik Lindstrøm
04-13-2015, 02:52 AM
You much more than just the WEAPON BRAIN when upgrading according the the red.com (http://red.com/) store - so I guess the 19.000 USD is a pretty good deal.!!!

http://www.red.com/store/products/we...ackage-deposit (http://www.red.com/store/products/weapon-magnesium-upgrade-package-deposit)

WEAPON BRAIN (Magnesium) w/ Integrated Media Bay
1 WEAPON Sidekick (Magnesium)
1 WEAPON Base Expander
1 WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module
1 WEAPON Top Handle
1 WEAPON Lemo Adaptor A
1 WEAPON Package Case
1 1-Year Standard Warranty

Brent Carter
04-13-2015, 02:52 AM
http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/icons/icon1.png Today, 10:47 AM

it is telling me "You currently have no serial numbers eligible for this program. ".


same



Checking on it.

James Falco
04-13-2015, 02:53 AM
I feel sorry for Scarlet owners that just dropped 9,5k on a Dragon upgrade just to get 5k credit. They would have been better up spending that on a new Wagon. Way better deal.

Jeffrey Loewe
04-13-2015, 02:54 AM
As awesome as this is I might be out of the RED weapon with the trade in value and prices of having to buy all new modules. Congrats to those who can do it. Is the deposit $5000 for the $2500 credit?

sam karr
04-13-2015, 02:54 AM
I feel sorry for Scarlet owners that just dropped 9,5k on a Dragon upgrade just to get 5k credit. They would have been better up spending that on a new Wagon. Way better deal.

It can't be. That would be totally crazy.

Brent Carter
04-13-2015, 02:54 AM
James, no one has to upgrade, it is an option.

David Ellison
04-13-2015, 02:54 AM
Am I the only one who thinks price versus performance is a little off... I mean the Pro Res thing is nice and I definitely like the auto calibration feature
but I was expecting this thing to do a lot more for 19K aside from look really nice. So far I'll not bother I think.

Zeb B
04-13-2015, 02:55 AM
When trying to place a deposit on the Mag Upgrade for my Epic-M the Store says: "You currently have no serial numbers eligible for this program"

Please let this post serve as a date / time stamp for the order.

Also, the link for "Weapon Product Page" is offline. Would like to get the Frame Rates etc asap.

Daniel Reed
04-13-2015, 02:55 AM
Yeah, I would be able to sell my recent upgraded Dragon for very close to the new price for it (like $20 000) and then it will only be around $14 500 for Weapon, not $19 000 as this trade in would be.
Or am I missing something? Seems odd

heh, nice $5,000 weapon add-on additional credit!
Tack that on, and all the trade in values are pretty nice!!

Jens Jakob Thorsen
04-13-2015, 02:56 AM
it is telling me "You currently have no serial numbers eligible for this program. "

Same!

Prince Bagdasarian
04-13-2015, 02:57 AM
No.

@brent I among many others am confused! I'm trying to pay the $5000 deposit for weapon mag upgrade In the red store but my dragon serial doesn't appear there. And, it looks like we also get a $5000 accessory credit if we pay a deposit before April 16th??
"Place your WEAPON™ pre-order by Thursday, April 16th—and pay the full deposit amount within 10 business days—to receive a $5,000 accessory credit to go along with your new WEAPON system."

And the upgrade deposit listing also includes the top handle, sidekick, base expander etc. Jared didn't mention that here. Soooooo confused!

Please please clarify and and let us know how we can pay a deposit.

Josef Gatti
04-13-2015, 02:57 AM
I agree with many of the recent posts. WEAPON is extremely expensive as an upgrade, and not worth it for most, especially considering all previous modules won't be compatible with this new body, and mini mags are the only media that work.

That said, I think this only strengthens Epic Dragon as a camera. At the end of the day, the image quality will be more or less the same as what is coming out of WEAPON (excluding Vista, 8k).

Charles Bergquist
04-13-2015, 03:00 AM
There has to be a bunch of specs that they haven't let out yet.

Adam Johnson
04-13-2015, 03:01 AM
you would think, i guess we shall see



There has to be a bunch of specs that they haven't let out yet.

Jarred Land
04-13-2015, 03:01 AM
I agree with many of the recent posts. WEAPON is extremely expensive as an upgrade, and not worth it for most, especially considering all previous modules won't be compatible with this new body, and mini mags are the only media that work.

That said, I think this only strengthens Epic Dragon as a camera. At the end of the day, the image quality will be more or less the same as what is coming out of WEAPON (excluding Vista, 8k).

Weapon is the top of the Dragon family. I understand the "previous module" complaint some people may have which is why we included the $5000 Weapon accessory credit for upgrades (or new purchases during NAB)

Mike Nagel
04-13-2015, 03:02 AM
if these trade-in prices are correct, then the urge to push peeps to upgrade before NAB seems very odd now...

upgrading to Dragon to go to Weapon was a bad decision... could have sold Epic (easily) for 15, saved 9 on the upgrade, and then upgrade for another 10 to Weapon... now it's 19 if u "trade-in"...

where's the appreciation for peeps that stayed on the upgrade path ?

Geoff Heatley
04-13-2015, 03:04 AM
I feel sorry for Scarlet owners that just dropped 9,5k on a Dragon upgrade just to get 5k credit. They would have been better up spending that on a new Wagon. Way better deal.

Yes, I'm THAT guy. I was totally planning on getting onboard the Weapon train, even spending a good chunk of cash if need be, but that trade-in value for the Scarlet Dragon is so gutting, that I just can't justify it, it's left me reeling :/ Sigh

Joel Arvidsson
04-13-2015, 03:04 AM
I think I will keep my Epic and just save up for a 8k Cf given if it performs like I hope. This rout is less fun but also less of a headache for me.

Demetri Zuev
04-13-2015, 03:04 AM
So when upgrading to Magnesium Weapon from Dragon-X we pay $19.000 and that includes accessories bundle worth $5000, correct?

Kemalettin Sert
04-13-2015, 03:04 AM
Weapon is the top of the Dragon family. I understand the "previous module" complaint some people may have which is why we included the $5000 Weapon accessory credit for upgrades (or new purchases during NAB)

Whats the end date for 5000$ credit?

Kwan Khan
04-13-2015, 03:05 AM
WEAPON is extremely expensive as an upgrade

Agreed, I will keep my Dragon and simply Rent Weapon when need....

James Falco
04-13-2015, 03:05 AM
James, no one has to upgrade, it is an option.

Yes but beating the drum before NAB that upgrading to dragon will be worth it, is not valid for Scarlet owners. If they get only 5k in credit right after they spend 9.5k on a dragon.
If anyone rushed to upgrade for that reason. Not sure how they feel about it.

Brent Carter
04-13-2015, 03:05 AM
There has to be a bunch of specs that they haven't let out yet.

Yes, tonight is sneak peek stuff. Details will continue to come out....

Joel Arvidsson
04-13-2015, 03:07 AM
Agreed, I will keep my Dragon and simply Weapon when need....

Sell Humble? yes/no;)

Russ Campbell
04-13-2015, 03:08 AM
Also getting the message that I have no serial numbers eligible for the upgrade. I assume that this is still being sorted out.

Kwan Khan
04-13-2015, 03:08 AM
Sell Humble? yes/no;)

LOL, just put $60K on humble (to upgrade)

https://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/10959259_455265984625625_6773791027307272854_o.jpg

Nick Morrison
04-13-2015, 03:08 AM
Yes, tonight is sneak peek stuff. Details will continue to come out....

Will specs be revealed this morning? If not, then I may slip off to bed...its 6am here on East Coast!

Kemalettin Sert
04-13-2015, 03:10 AM
Yes, tonight is sneak peek stuff. Details will continue to come out....

Whats the deadline for 5K $ credit offer

Adam Johnson
04-13-2015, 03:11 AM
Any chance you could add that on to the trade credit instead? I don't see myself wanting to buy a lot of accessories right away. And that would probably be the ONLY feasible way I could upgrade to Weapon is by adding that $5k accessory credit to the trade in credit instead. Make sense? I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this...and it would help immensly more for me to get in on Weapon. :)

In other words, this is what I mean

Dragon X - $15,500 trade in credit + $5000 accessory credit

or

Dragon X - 20,500 trade in credit + no accessory credit


Weapon is the top of the Dragon family. I understand the "previous module" complaint some people may have which is why we included the $5000 Weapon accessory credit for upgrades (or new purchases during NAB)

Demetri Zuev
04-13-2015, 03:12 AM
Whats the deadline for 5K $ credit offer

It is stated right on the upgrade page

Place your WEAPON™ pre-order by Thursday, April 16th—and pay the full deposit amount within 10 business days—to receive a $5,000 accessory credit to go along with your new WEAPON system.

Josef Gatti
04-13-2015, 03:12 AM
I think I will keep my Epic and just save up for a 8k Cf given if it performs like I hope. This rout is less fun but also less of a headache for me.

This. I think it makes sense to buy Weapon outright.


Weapon is the top of the Dragon family. I understand the "previous module" complaint some people may have which is why we included the $5000 Weapon accessory credit for upgrades (or new purchases during NAB)

Totally understand. You have developed a better camera which has the need to phase out some of the older modules. The 5k credit is beyond generous. Though for me, it makes sense to stay on Epic for the time being, considering (from what we know) the $15k it costs to upgrade will not drastically increase image quality, which is what my primary focus is. I think many would agree.

That being said...

I know this won't get an answer but I have to ask. Will Epic -> Weapon path be open for a while? Say as long as Scarlet-X -> Epic-X was? ;)

Joachim Hoge
04-13-2015, 03:13 AM
Same serial number issue here. Says we don´t have a valid serial number

Kemalettin Sert
04-13-2015, 03:14 AM
It is stated right on the upgrade page

Place your WEAPON™ pre-order by Thursday, April 16th—and pay the full deposit amount within 10 business days—to receive a $5,000 accessory credit to go along with your new WEAPON system.
Damn i need money asap then!!

Daniel Reed
04-13-2015, 03:15 AM
Weapon is the top of the Dragon family. I understand the "previous module" complaint some people may have which is why we included the $5000 Weapon accessory credit for upgrades (or new purchases during NAB)

Thanks Jarred. Is the $5,000 accessory credit an addition to the items bundled w/ the $5K deposit package, or is the credit refering to the items in the bundle? (hope that question made sense, heh)


1 WEAPON BRAIN (Magnesium) w/ Integrated Media Bay
1 WEAPON Sidekick (Magnesium)
1 WEAPON Base Expander
1 WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module
1 WEAPON Top Handle
1 WEAPON Lemo Adaptor A
1 WEAPON Package Case
1 1-Year Standard Warranty

Adam Johnson
04-13-2015, 03:16 AM
This would help the little guy sooooo much!



Any chance you could add that on to the trade credit instead? I don't see myself wanting to buy a lot of accessories right away. And that would probably be the ONLY feasible way I could upgrade to Weapon is by adding that $5k accessory credit to the trade in credit instead. Make sense? I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking this...and it would help immensly more for me to get in on Weapon. :)

In other words, this is what I mean

Dragon X - $15,500 trade in credit + $5000 accessory credit

or

Dragon X - 20,500 trade in credit + no accessory credit

Jarred Land
04-13-2015, 03:17 AM
Thanks Jarred. Is the $5,000 accessory credit an addition to the items bundled w/ the $5K deposit package, or is the credit refering to the items in the bundle? (hope that question made sense, heh)

1 WEAPON BRAIN (Magnesium) w/ Integrated Media Bay
1 WEAPON Sidekick (Magnesium)
1 WEAPON Base Expander
1 WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module
1 WEAPON Top Handle
1 WEAPON Lemo Adaptor A
1 WEAPON Package Case
1 1-Year Standard Warranty


Yes, when invoiced, that $5000 Weapon credit will be applied bundles as well yes.

Jeffrey Loewe
04-13-2015, 03:22 AM
I agree with many of the recent posts. WEAPON is extremely expensive as an upgrade, and not worth it for most, especially considering all previous modules won't be compatible with this new body, and mini mags are the only media that work.

That said, I think this only strengthens Epic Dragon as a camera. At the end of the day, the image quality will be more or less the same as what is coming out of WEAPON (excluding Vista, 8k).
I think many of us, myself included have become spoiled from trade in and upgrade programs. RED has just released something amazing yet there is a lot of questioning and negativity.

Do I wish the trade in was higher? Yes. Do I wish the deposit was more affordable? Yes. But in reality it's amazing they are even giving us either option. Who else does?

Great work RED team and Jarred. I may not be able to afford it now but it's something I Will hopefully be able to soon. Looking forward to meeting all of you later today and seeing all the cool toys in person.

Adam Johnson
04-13-2015, 03:22 AM
agreeeeed


I think many of us, myself included have become spoiled from trade in and upgrade programs. RED has just released something amazing yet there is a lot of questioning and negativity.

Do I wish the trade in was higher? Yes. Do I wish the deposit was more affordable? Yes. But in reality it's amazing they are even giving us either option. Who else does?

Great work RED team and Jarred. I may not be able to afford it now but it's something I Will hopefully be able to soon. Looking forward to meeting all of you later today and seeing all the cool toys in person.

jacob.schwarz
04-13-2015, 03:23 AM
Any word on a side handle for the Weapon?

Mike 'Fireman' Ross
04-13-2015, 03:24 AM
Yes, when invoiced, that $5000 Weapon credit will be applied bundles as well yes.

Jarred, is that your help for people with investment in standard 512GB Redmags? Or is there some additional assistance for them still to be worked out? You mentioned you were going to try to do something...?

Mike

Prince Bagdasarian
04-13-2015, 03:24 AM
Yes, when invoiced, that $5000 Weapon credit will be applied bundles as well yes.

YES!!!!! Now the trade in/upgrade prices make sense. Badass. Thanks for confirming Jared!

As ketch said, if now only my serial number issue would be fixed to pay the deposit...

Adam Johnson
04-13-2015, 03:25 AM
I don't want this to get lost in the crazy shuffle. But any chance in making the $5k accessory credit part of the trade in credit for those that would rather use it that way to help them upgrade?

It would certinaly help someone like me who doesnt want to buy many accessories right away. Thanks


If not, no big deal. I know you guys are doing everything you can already! Thank you

Josef Gatti
04-13-2015, 03:27 AM
I think many of us, myself included have become spoiled from trade in and upgrade programs. RED has just released something amazing yet there is a lot of questioning and negativity.

Do I wish the trade in was higher? Yes. Do I wish the deposit was more affordable? Yes. But in reality it's amazing they are even giving us either option. Who else does?

Great work RED team and Jarred. I may not be able to afford it now but it's something I Will hopefully be able to soon. Looking forward to meeting all of you later today and seeing all the cool toys in person.

Also agree with this. I was one of the lucky ones where after one and a half years, my Scarlet-X received 100% of it's value credited towards an Epic. Spoiled indeed.

I can see how my post may have been viewed as negative, though that was not my intention. I understand why everything is the way it is, and appreciate it. Epic Dragon has not been devalued as a result of Weapon, which I appreciate very much. I do hope the Epic -> Weapon path is open for a while.

Mike 'Fireman' Ross
04-13-2015, 03:28 AM
I think many of us, myself included have become spoiled from trade in and upgrade programs. RED has just released something amazing yet there is a lot of questioning and negativity.

Do I wish the trade in was higher? Yes. Do I wish the deposit was more affordable? Yes. But in reality it's amazing they are even giving us either option. Who else does?

Great work RED team and Jarred. I may not be able to afford it now but it's something I Will hopefully be able to soon. Looking forward to meeting all of you later today and seeing all the cool toys in person.

Jeffrey, as I said, it's a great proposition for new entrants. Call it $38k for a body including the big I/O module; Red just announced a camera that pisses all over Arri at that price point.

Where it's less attractive is for existing owners, especially small-time owner/operators like me. The upgrade deal looks, on first glance, to be uncompetitive with just selling the camera and buying a new one. I said weeks ago not to get hopes too high, the Epic 'stages' program was a crazy once-in-a-lifetime deal, Weapon would be a LOT more expensive of an upgrade. Seems I was right. But we're still crunching numbers.

Mike

Andy White
04-13-2015, 03:32 AM
Weapon looks great, no doubt about that.

But, I think I'll have to stick at Epic Dragon, as I just can't see a way to make this work (for me). I lost out on the post Stage4 half price slash a few years back, but have stuck with RED and went for the Dragon upgrade on the previous deadline and have been waiting to see what NAB brings :)

Much as I'd love to go to Weapon, the $ outlay (GBP in my case) to go for new media and accessories, will hold me back. I'm sure others will enjoy the ride, but I'll stay in second class from now on.

Rob Anderson
04-13-2015, 03:36 AM
As someone that owns multiple RED Dragon aluminum camera bodies (plus one RED Dragon CF body), the Weapon trade-in program has been a major consideration for the start of 2015. For anyone else in the same boat, here's how the numbers break-down and what you should be considering when looking at this upgrade path:

Paid $27,000 for the Epic-X (aluminum). Upgraded to Dragon for $9,500. Weapon Magnesium model is $34,500. Trade-in credit for the Dragon-X (aluminum) is $15,500. Upgrade price after trade-in will be $19,000. Combined total for Epic-X to Dragon-X to Weapon Magnesium will be $55,500. Less from that amount is $5,000 in accessory credit (NAB promotion) and years of experience and sales with the Epic-X and Dragon-X brains.

If you made more than $21,000 off of your Epic-X and Dragon-X, you will have saved money towards the Weapon and have had years of experience, reel, and product to show for it.

That being said, based on the features being advertised and the future 8K sensor path, you are almost certainly better off upgrading to the Weapon CF model and skipping over the Magnesium base-model Weapon completely. More specs will be released, but already it's obvious the CF model has more power under the hood.

Last, I'm not thrilled with the upgrade cliff. It's more than I budgeted and expected for the step from Dragon to Weapon. But I also realize (1) no other company besides RED even offers a trade-in and (2) this lesser-value trade-in program will help to do something very important for every RED owner -- improve RED brain values longer-term. Something people have been complaining about for years and I've also felt, the value of RED brains drops off dramatically with every upgrade cycle. This time around, that won't be such a dramatic fall. Much better for all of us.

Jeffrey Loewe
04-13-2015, 03:37 AM
Also agree with this. I was one of the lucky ones where after one and a half years, my Scarlet-X received 100% of it's value credited towards an Epic. Spoiled indeed.

I can see how my post may have been viewed as negative, though that was not my intention. I understand why everything is the way it is, and appreciate it. Epic Dragon has not been devalued as a result of Weapon, which I appreciate very much. I do hope the Epic -> Weapon path is open for a while.

Josef,

Didn't mean to single you out. I understood what you were saying. It was more me sharing a similar feeling but also wanting to add on what's been accomplished is pretty amazing.

I also hope the window stays open awhile.

Kemalettin Sert
04-13-2015, 03:37 AM
Yes, when invoiced, that $5000 Weapon credit will be applied bundles as well yes.

Jarred at least can you guys made that 5K $ credit offer lasts 1 month?

Patrick Grossien
04-13-2015, 03:37 AM
What about the side handle - "stills - style" ? :)

Curran Giddens
04-13-2015, 03:41 AM
Is there a "Magnesium Weapon Brain only" upgrade option? Not sure I need everything in the package option yet.

Prince Bagdasarian
04-13-2015, 03:44 AM
As far as I see Curran, the $34,500 price is the bundle price it says on the page?!?...

It it states on the bundle page: "The $5,000 deposit will be applied towards the final price of $34,500."

Kemalettin Sert
04-13-2015, 03:46 AM
As far as I see Curran, the $34,500 price is the bundle price it says on the page?!?...

It it states on the bundle page: "The $5,000 deposit will be applied towards the final price of $34,500."
I see now yes that one is expensive as hall because of this.plus $ 5K credit is awesome

Christoffer Glans
04-13-2015, 03:48 AM
I'm glad to have upgraded to Dragon during the price reduction and it will be serving me well. But this was way beyond anything I can afford. I planned to upgrade like a year from now when I've earned together enough to be able to do it based on upgrade costs before but now the upgrade to Dragon before NAB doesn't make sense because we need to deposit more money directly to receive the discount we were told to get by getting a Dragon before NAB. Many of us really cleaned out our banks to be able to upgrade to Dragon before NAB and there's no way we are able to deposit once again just to get that discount that's worth it.

So, for us there's no discount, whatever we were told before NAB. I'm glad I upgraded and now have Dragon, but I didn't expect everything to be this steep. If Vista Vision were enabled on the magnesium as well it would make more sense. I understand that I shouldn't complain, because I like the new stuff coming out, but it's a bit sad as I were looking forward to getting Weapon.

Jonas Klittmark
04-13-2015, 03:49 AM
So effectively the upgrade comes out to $14k for current Epic Dragon-X owners. Assuming you can put the $5k credit to good use. That's getting closer to being interesting.

Still, it's a tough pill to swallow for internal Prores and 50% faster fps...

Now if the $10k upgrade to 8k VV applied to magnesium that would change everything. All of a sudden it would be a no-brainer.

Curran Giddens
04-13-2015, 03:52 AM
As far as I see Curran, the $34,500 price is the bundle price it says on the page?!?...

It it states on the bundle page: "The $5,000 deposit will be applied towards the final price of $34,500."

Yes, I know. I'm looking for the non-bundled option. And I still want the $5k credit for when I do decide what accessories to buy.

Adam Johnson
04-13-2015, 03:55 AM
does no one else wish the $5k accessory creidt could be put toward the trade in credit?

Tim Lüdin
04-13-2015, 03:55 AM
Hi Jarred
Congrats to the new line-up. Looking all good.
What about frame rates of the 6K Weapon Version. This is the most important reason to upgrade right away.
Any Infos yet?

Thanks Bro

Tim

Adam Johnson
04-13-2015, 03:57 AM
Agreed. But it would be sweet just to have the $5k credit put toward the trade-in too :)


Yes, I know. I'm looking for the non-bundled option. And I still want the $5k credit for when I do decide what accessories to buy.

Nils Ruinet
04-13-2015, 03:58 AM
Looks great.

So, is there a time limit for these upgrades ?

If I keep my Epic Dragon for now, and decide to upgrade to Weapon in 1 year for example, will that still be an option ? Same question for the additional $5000 accessory credit ?

Jonas Klittmark
04-13-2015, 03:58 AM
does no one else wish the $5k accessory creidt could be put toward the trade in credit?

Obviously yes but those are not the terms offered. And for the same reason that you want it that way, RED wants it the other way.

Mendes Nabil
04-13-2015, 03:59 AM
Again, really great new line! But what about the basics? Is there an improvement in term of image quality? Color science, low light capabilities, dynamic range? Or do we get the exact same image as with the Epic D. or even Scarlet Dragon?

Prince Bagdasarian
04-13-2015, 04:00 AM
I'm with you Adam. The $5k credit towards our upgrade would be great, and would ease the transition now... And give us more time to decide on preferred accessories.

James Falco
04-13-2015, 04:00 AM
Last, I'm not thrilled with the upgrade cliff. It's more than I budgeted and expected for the step from Dragon to Weapon. But I also realize (1) no other company besides RED even offers a trade-in and (2) this lesser-value trade-in program will help to do something very important for every RED owner -- improve RED brain values longer-term. Something people have been complaining about for years and I've also felt, the value of RED brains drops off dramatically with every upgrade cycle. This time around, that won't be such a dramatic fall. Much better for all of us.

Actually there is other companies that offer upgrade paths. Mamiya Leaf have let me trade in my digital camera back twice, when buying a new one.

Just saying.

Jonas Klittmark
04-13-2015, 04:04 AM
One sort of fine print question - what exactly are we sending in to get the trade-in discount? Brain-only? Brain and SSD?

This impacts the upgrade deal as well since if it is brain only, we'll have a few accessories to sell separately to help with the upgrade cost.

Jon Nash
04-13-2015, 04:05 AM
Whats the weight of the brain , SSD module and 1 x revolt please ? Will I be able to give my neck a rest with the Weapon ? I make a living from sticking my Dragon on my head and jumping out of planes with it. The Side handle configuration of my current dragon works great for this. Will my RED Volts on a weapon be secure when I'm traveling towards earth at 150MPH and then experiencing sudden deceleration as I open my chute? I read some where on a thread that the security of Red Volts could pose a problem on the Weapon in this particular use??

Andreas Mendritzki
04-13-2015, 04:07 AM
Jarred,

Is the "cmos-smearing" issue wrangled on the Weapon?

thanks

Jonas Klittmark
04-13-2015, 04:07 AM
Any word on whether Weapon addresses issues like gate shadow?

Adam Johnson
04-13-2015, 04:07 AM
+1000


Jarred,

Is the "cmos-smearing" issue wrangled on the Weapon?

thanks

Rob Anderson
04-13-2015, 04:09 AM
Whats the weight of the brain , SSD module and 1 x revolt please ? Will I be able to give my neck a rest with the Weapon ? I make a living from sticking my Dragon on my head and jumping out of planes with it. The Side handle configuration of my current dragon works great for this. Will my RED Volts on a weapon be secure when I'm traveling towards earth at 150MPH and then experiencing sudden deceleration as I open my chute? I read some where on a thread that the security of Red Volts could pose a problem on the Weapon in this particular use??
Sounds like this is one area that's ripe for picking by an entity willing to step up with RED and take advantage of the Weapon being open to third-party modules. A skydive/high-performance module might be of interest to more than a few Weapon owners.

Mike 'Fireman' Ross
04-13-2015, 04:15 AM
Sounds like this is one area that's ripe for picking by an entity willing to step up with RED and take advantage of the Weapon being open to third-party modules. A skydive/high-performance module might be of interest to more than a few Weapon owners.

You know what the third-party module is that will be most popular? Yep, one that takes full-size Redmags. Yes technology progresses, but Red could have stuffed the new faster SSD into the same shells and connectors as the old Redmags. But they didn't, they went for a new form factor. Excuse me, were there a bunch of people complaining that the old Redmags were too big and heavy, and screaming for a smaller lighter media package...?!

We're smart, we can live with different media having different perfomances; look how we managed with CF cards vs. Red Drive vs. Red Ram vs. Redmags on the Red One. I will be a HELL of a lot more likely to pull the trigger on Weapon if someone makes that module. I can live with my red 512GB mags not performing up to the specs of 1TB mini mags, a LOT better than I can live with them not working at all...

Mike

Mike Nagel
04-13-2015, 04:19 AM
So effectively the upgrade comes out to $14k for current Epic Dragon-X owners. Assuming you can put the $5k credit to good use. That's getting closer to being interesting.

Still, it's a tough pill to swallow for internal Prores and 50% faster fps...

Now if the $10k upgrade to 8k VV applied to magnesium that would change everything. All of a sudden it would be a no-brainer.

the good new is this is an optional upgrade, nobody needs to do it ;-)

but u're paying 19K on the upgrade path - not 14. You are paying for these 5K accessories with your 19K and now you're "force-fed" RED AKS... if that's what you wanted to do anyways, this is great... but OffHollywood's stuff looks very interesting and maybe I wanna put cash towards that...

the option to put the 5K towards the trade-in price - as Adam suggested - is the way to go, and IMO this should be offered (at least) to peeps who stayed on the upgrade path, as per RED's suggestion... keep the family happy, and u're making more money anyways...

And RED can use the incoming Epic Dragons for the new Scarlet-Dragon-2-Epic-Dragon upgrade program, which they will anyways... so even more profit.

other than that, this would mark the first time where there is no incentive to stay on the upgrade path anymore... sell ur stuff early, buy new directly and save good money (compared to trade-in). Same as with all other cams.

I love the options, though. Much appreciated. I just don't get the upgrade-path-reward-mentality on this one... but hey, at one point RED has to start making some money ;-))))))

reality probably is that from that 19K, 18K go towards the rotten Apple for the ProRes license.... hahaha

Rob Anderson
04-13-2015, 04:25 AM
You know what the third-party module is that will be most popular? Yep, one that takes full-size Redmags. Yes technology progresses, but Red could have stuffed the new faster SSD into the same shells and connectors as the old Redmags. But they didn't, they went for a new form factor. Excuse me, were there a bunch of people complaining that the old Redmags were too big and heavy, and screaming for a smaller lighter media package...?!

We're smart, we can live with different media having different perfomances; look how we managed with CF cards vs. Red Drive vs. Red Ram vs. Redmags on the Red One. I will be a HELL of a lot more likely to pull the trigger on Weapon if someone makes that module. I can live with my red 512GB mags not performing up to the specs of 1TB mini mags, a LOT better than I can live with them not working at all...

Mike
As soon as the MINIMAGs dropped, I dumped all of my full-size and dove right in. This was a year ago now. I shoot a lot of high-speed and wanted a little less RC compression. I also use eSATA 6G with TB2 enclosures and wanted faster offloads. Plus I liked the value of the 512GB MINI versus the full-size. My only problem was having to wait a little while for a carbon fiber MINIMAG side module (the aluminum MINIMAG side module is not compatible with the CF). I made the MINIMAG jump immediately and I've been thrilled with it.

Inversely, I'm a bit sore you guys are getting a full-size MAG to MINIMAG trade-up program.

When I made the jump to MINIMAGs, I invested in the REAR SSD MODULE. This was to give my sub-rentals a 9-1-1 emergency button to jam if they ran out of MINIMAG media and the DIT was jammed up. Sourcing full-size mags is easy.

I'm reasonably certain something like the REAR SSD MODULE could be built for the Weapon. It's already a trick little module and doesn't seem like it would take much to hammer it onto the Weapon. But I'm also pretty sure it's been said the speed of the full-size mags cannot accommodate Weapon footage read/write requirements. (See the increase in frame rates and simultaneous RAW + ProRes capture.)

While the form factor probably could have stayed the same, the bigger issue is the speed of the full-size vs. MINIMAG media. Since the full-size mags are incompatible with the Weapon r/w requirements, why even bother keeping the form at all? Upgrading to the faster MINIMAG media is a necessity. So it's really not about having been able to build a carriage or rear module or whatever. Plus, RED's got the media upgrade path now.

I understand the frustration on the surface-level, but dig into it and it all makes sense why RED transitioned.

Patrick Tresch
04-13-2015, 04:31 AM
Quote of the year!


I make a living from sticking my Dragon on my head and jumping out of planes with it.
You deserve to get your Weapon for free!!

Pat

Ivan Kovax
04-13-2015, 04:33 AM
What max frame rates can it do?

Kemalettin Sert
04-13-2015, 04:36 AM
Jarred please extend $ 5K credit offer :(

Ian D
04-13-2015, 04:37 AM
Unsure about this one, I have a scarlet dragon, 5k raw + a hd recorder on the side, spent about 25k usd, reason for, I don't want to compete with the big rental houses as they get the bigger gigs and I can go out as operator, dp on those big shoots, I would not have a chance trying to compete gear wise with what they have. so my gear works for me now to be fair right, reasonably affordable, can work on smaller commercials / features, great results lots of clients happy with the pro res files. Super 35 is a great format, no complaints. Ideal upgrade option for me would be scarlet weapon, 5k some little extras, possible upgrade as I do. that would be a worth while investment 10-15k usd, a bit of a discount happy days. Now upgrade would cost 30k including discount, and putting me in competition with my rental house friends. Not a viable option I think after 1 year year working the camera. I can get another few years out of this cam for sure, but this could be the end of the red train if there is not a lower spec weapon available, indie, owner operators will find this tough. Or I could just be a bigger name dp, make more money and have more pulling power, few years away I feel. My cam is working for me not me working for the camera.


Best to all who can make the leap.

Cheers
Ian

Leroy Jackson
04-13-2015, 04:43 AM
This. Sounds more like a Best Buy trade-in program, not the traditional RED one.

I was thinking the same thing lol. I just got this thing November of last year right before the price increase. But hey at least there
is a upgrade path I guess. That put's me at another 17K to upgrade and it appears most of the stuff I got won't work with it lol.
I'm out ............ for now.

Ian D
04-13-2015, 04:45 AM
OK just saw this http://www.red.com/store/products/scarlet-dragon-to-epic-dragon-upgrade I'll shut up now.

Cheers
Ian

Ian D
04-13-2015, 04:57 AM
Ya just saw, that is a great offer and can merrily make that upgrade, another year or two make another move, really fits with where I sit in this crazy world. Thanks Daniel! Smile returned :)


(temporary) SD to Epic Dragon upgrade for $9500.

This will get you 6K at higher frame-rates and lower compression now!

Plus, you get $8000 more credit towards VVeapon! (a nice step along the way)

Erwin van Dijck
04-13-2015, 04:57 AM
this could be the end of the red train if there is not a lower spec weapon available, indie, owner operators will find this tough.

I tend to agree with that... Guess RED will be a high-end only thing.

Demetri Zuev
04-13-2015, 05:01 AM
What I would like to suggest is this and I'm asking everyone who can relate to this to support this so it won't get lost in the flow of posts.

There are some who upgraded to Dragon before NAB fore a sole purpose - to get a Weapon.

What these people have right now in their hands is a regular Epic-X that hasn't yet been shipped for a Dragon upgrade. I'm only talking about people who are in this particular situation, not the ones who took delivery or used their camera already.

I understand that the Dragon to Weapon trade in credit is offered to every Dragon owner and there are a lot of Dragons out there, some may be 3 months old, some more than a year. They are used and there is no doubt about it. Everyone gets a fixed trade in credit for a used camera.

But the not yet upgraded Dragons are not used. They are as good as brand new, at least the brain itself. Correct me if I'm wrong here but these brains can be sold in the RED store as new.

So what I would like to suggest is for great guys at RED to give it a thought and maybe extend the amount of credit for these cameras, but with a condition that their owners do not get delivery of their Dragon brains as these brains get sold on the RED store as new. Instead they wait and get a new Weapon, when the time comes based on a time stamp of their order.

emil tanem
04-13-2015, 05:04 AM
What I would like to suggest is this and I'm asking everyone who can relate to this to support this so it won't get lost in the flow of posts.

There are some who upgraded to Dragon before NAB fore a sole purpose - to get a Weapon.

What these people have right now in their hands is a regular Epic-X that hasn't yet been shipped for a Dragon upgrade. I'm only talking about people who are in this particular situation, not the ones who took delivery or used their camera already.

I understand that the Dragon to Weapon trade in credit is offered to every Dragon owner and there are a lot of Dragons out there, some may be 3 months old, some more than a year. They are used and there is no doubt about it. Everyone gets a fixed trade in credit for a used camera.

But the not yet upgraded Dragons are not used. They are as good as brand new, at least the brain itself. Correct me if I'm wrong here but these brains can be sold in the RED store as new.

So what I would like to suggest is for great guys at RED to give it a thought and maybe extend the amount of credit for these cameras, but with a condition that their owners do not get delivery of their Dragon brains as these brains get sold on the RED store as new. Instead they wait and get a new Weapon, when the time comes based on a time stamp of their order.

Could not agree more.

Rob Anderson
04-13-2015, 05:04 AM
I tend to agree with that... Guess RED will be a high-end only thing.
Jarred said earlier that Weapon represents the top for RED. That implies a few things and it's been hinted in other ways over the last few months.. I think there's more than just the RED Weapon camera premiering at NAB. Exciting times.

Andrae Palmer
04-13-2015, 05:06 AM
Anyone know if the RED Weapon Magnesium will have a future upgrade path to 8K Vista Vision? I would like to know this info to see what junction we are at.... I'm only interested in the 8K Vista Vision upgrade path.

Rob Anderson
04-13-2015, 05:08 AM
But the not yet upgraded Dragons are not used. They are as good as brand new, at least the brain itself. Correct me if I'm wrong here but these brains can be sold in the RED store as new.
Just to clarify, the upgraded Epic and Scarlet brains are definitely used. RED upgrades the sensor and a few other internals (plus fans) in the path to Dragon. However, the body, side module, lens mount (if you shipped one), and most other components are not upgraded at all. You'll be getting back your same camera body with love marks on it, just as you shipped it to RED. Definitely not brand-new condition. I'd be pretty upset if I bought a new Dragon from RED and received someone else's dinged and loved Scarlet/Epic body.

Ian D
04-13-2015, 05:08 AM
This scarlet d to epic d, opens the floor again for me, all my accessories fit straight on and work well for me now and into the future. Gives a breather for another year or two and who knows where we will be from there. But your right Erwin, any new comers are not going to be able to get the new body. Weapon seems to be high end only for sure, but Scarlet / Epic dragon, are more than comparable so that should help people at the lower end of the scale that crave quality.

Cheers
Ian

Mike Nagel
04-13-2015, 05:08 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong here but these brains can be sold in the RED store as new.


These cams are the same used Epics just with a new sensor/boards, not new brains...

SUNILPREM
04-13-2015, 05:09 AM
Amazing...............Just 3moths before I had upgraded to Dragon,now new weapon coming out.........so I have to wait for the fund coming out for next upgrade.Thank you Red I started with Scarlet, now I own the Epic Dragon.thanks for the Upgrade path.


Sunil Prem

Rob Anderson
04-13-2015, 05:10 AM
Anyone know if the RED Weapon Magnesium will have an upgrade path to 8K Vista Vision? I would like to know this info to see what junction we are at.... I'm only interested in the 8K Vista Vision upgrade path.
They haven't said this won't happen, but reading all of the subtext regarding the 8K upgrade and the carbon fiber itself, you'd need to be on the CF boat to migrate to 8K and beyond. Magnesium is a lesser-expensive Weapon that does not appear to have a future beyond. *As always subject to RED-change.

Andrae Palmer
04-13-2015, 05:12 AM
They haven't said this won't happen, but reading all of the subtext regarding the 8K upgrade and the carbon fiber itself, you'd need to be on the CF boat to migrate to 8K and beyond. Magnesium is a lesser-expensive Weapon that does not appear to have a future beyond. *As always subject to RED-change.

If that's the case that there is no upgrade path to 8k Vista Vision from the RED Weapon Magnesium line... this game just got very expensive. Still willing to do all we can do to get on the upgrade path to 8k... just would like some clarity from RED on this issue.

Hans von Sonntag
04-13-2015, 05:15 AM
Ok. I did the math as anybody else here. 19k plus media, plus modules end up easily at 27k. That's much to much for the possibility to record ProRes proxies. Vista/FF/8K is nice for still photographers but I shoot exclusively on PL glas and S35mm.

Guess Epic Dragon is the final station of my Red trip. Loved that trip, was a interesting bumpy road!

Thanks for the journey!

Hans

Tim Morris
04-13-2015, 05:16 AM
Things just got real!!

Jens Jakob Thorsen
04-13-2015, 05:18 AM
The stealth option does not work for magnesium upgrade on the EU site.

Andreas Mendritzki
04-13-2015, 05:19 AM
If that's the case that there is no upgrade path to 8k Vista Vision from the RED Weapon Magnesium line... this game just got very expensive. Still willing to do all we can do to get on the upgrade path to 8k... just would like some clarity from RED on this issue.

Agreed.

However, one thing is clear: They're offering a 10k additional discount on the 6k to 8k upgrade now, its short term, and is only available to those on the carbon path. If you subtract the side module and PL mount that are not included in the Magnesium upgrade kit, then the difference between the two is about 10k. Well, you just saved yourself 10k by going the carbon path now.

Ie:

Carbon 6k + 10k$ Vista Vision upgrade= 60k (minus current trade in value if applicable)
vs
Magnesium 6k + PL Mount + side-module + 20k Vista Vision upgrade = 60k (minus current trade in value if applicable)

So basically it ends up kiff-kiff, but might as well go carbon now if you're sure you want to end up with the Vista Vision version. . .

Patrick Tresch
04-13-2015, 05:20 AM
What does Woven mean?

"Weapon woven" (http://eu.red.com/store/products/weapon-woven-cf-upgrade-package-deposit) is it different from the Sidekick...?
Thanks

Pat

Leroy Jackson
04-13-2015, 05:22 AM
I'M WITH HANS LOL. Was a nice ride doe.

Geoff Heatley
04-13-2015, 05:22 AM
Weapon Overview just went up on Red.com;

http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon#overview

No tech specs yet though;)

Andy White
04-13-2015, 05:25 AM
Weapon Overview just went up on Red.com;

http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon#overview

No tech specs yet though;)

Stop posting and read your PM ;)

Rob Anderson
04-13-2015, 05:28 AM
What does Woven mean?
There are two types of Carbon Fiber models. The internals are the same. The difference is cosmetic primarily and possibly structurally in terms of scuffing and heat. Not sure on that part. But the two types of Weapon Carbon Fiber models are; (1) woven CF which is your traditional carbon fiber looking pattern and (2) forged CF which looks sickadelic.

Geoff Heatley
04-13-2015, 05:28 AM
One sort of fine print question - what exactly are we sending in to get the trade-in discount? Brain-only? Brain and SSD?

This impacts the upgrade deal as well since if it is brain only, we'll have a few accessories to sell separately to help with the upgrade cost.


NOTE: As part of the upgrade, RED requires you send in your DRAGON BRAIN, DSMC SIDE SSD MODULE, and DSMC Lens Mount for evaluation. If RED determines any non-Warranty repairs are necessary we will issue you a service quote before we can proceed with the upgrade.

As stated here:

https://support.red.com/entries/92751667-WEAPON-Upgrade-Credit

Patrick Tresch
04-13-2015, 05:34 AM
There are two types of Carbon Fiber models. The internals are the same. The difference is cosmetic primarily and possibly structurally in terms of scuffing and heat. Not sure on that part. But the two types of Weapon Carbon Fiber models are; (1) woven CF which is your traditional carbon fiber looking pattern and (2) forged CF which looks sickadelic.


Ok Thx

Geoff Heatley
04-13-2015, 05:49 AM
What does Woven mean?

"Weapon woven" (http://eu.red.com/store/products/weapon-woven-cf-upgrade-package-deposit) is it different from the Sidekick...?
Thanks

Pat

Bro. Woven as in basket weaving.

Scott Brown
04-13-2015, 05:54 AM
Hats off to RED on Weapon, looks real interesting.

That said, I'm really glad we sold our Epic-X and got off the Red train, the ticket to ride is getting real expensive and you need a very very strong business case to continue on this journey.

We'll be renting but not owning - it's the stress free way to go :w00t:

Scott

Ces Peynetti
04-13-2015, 06:05 AM
$34,500 Brain + Media Bay


So the $34,500 price point is for the Weapon package correct? That means it also includes:
1 WEAPON Sidekick (Magnesium)
1 WEAPON Base Expander
1 WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module
1 WEAPON Top Handle
1 WEAPON Lemo Adaptor A
1 WEAPON Package Case
1 1-Year Standard Warranty

There is no such option as JUST the Brain + Integrated Media Bay.

I'm just making sure I get it and it's not my late night brain playing tricks with me.

Michael Jensen
04-13-2015, 06:07 AM
Is the magnesium version upgradeable to 8k at some point or is that a CF option only? Does the CF version offer anything over magnesium like higher frame rates or anything similar?

Andrae Palmer
04-13-2015, 06:13 AM
Is the magnesium version upgradeable to 8k at some point or is that a CF option only? Does the CF version offer anything over magnesium like higher frame rates or anything similar?

I'm beginning to think it will not be... judging by the faster 120fps at 6k/prores and larger 33x33x33 3D LUT of the CF version when compared to the lower specs of the magnesium version. The CF version looks like it has a faster engine suitable for 8k.

Matthew J
04-13-2015, 06:15 AM
The returning the lens mount is a little concerning to me. I would love a magnesium PL mount, but for the money right now I rather keep my TI PL mount and not have to spend an extra $3500 for the MG mount.

Todd Gilpin
04-13-2015, 06:21 AM
Looks like 8K is CF only.

https://support.red.com/entries/92759057

Peter Majtan
04-13-2015, 06:22 AM
Jarred did say long before NAB that "this time the CF version will actually do more..."

:sifone: Peter

Mike Nagel
04-13-2015, 06:23 AM
The returning the lens mount is a little concerning to me. I would love a magnesium PL mount, but for the money right now I rather keep my TI PL mount and not have to spend an extra $3500 for the MG mount.

yeah, I'm not sure about that either... are they keeping the Ti PL mount when u sent the Dragon in ?

I think it was mentioned before that the old mounts work on Weapon, so I would wanna keep my existing mount...

Shane Peel
04-13-2015, 06:24 AM
I think I will keep my Epic and just save up for a 8k Cf given if it performs like I hope. This rout is less fun but also less of a headache for me.

I hear you, unless there is a pretty big story on the FPS the results my Epic is getting are enough to test my abilities as a film maker anyway and I love all the accessories that I spent a bunch of money on less than 12 months ago and wanna feel I got use out of them before they just ad to the land fill problem the planet has. Looks to me like the 6K weapon is really just a stop gap and a bit of a short cut to vista vis and 8K and my reality is that if I was shooting something that justified 8K vista chances are the cost of picking up the camera would have long become a thing of the past. This new cam looks unreal and will be best in class for sure. Lets hear those FPS numbers JL:):)

Jeremy Torrie
04-13-2015, 06:25 AM
If we are upgrading the body to Weapon, then why wouldn't we be able to get the 8K sensor as well? I love the idea of 8K but why only for the Carbon Fibre?

Peter Majtan
04-13-2015, 06:29 AM
If we are upgrading the body to Weapon, then why wouldn't we be able to get the 8K sensor as well? I love the idea of 8K but why only for the Carbon Fibre?

The CF brain in the Weapon line clearly has a more powerful processing unit(s) internally. You can see this from the higher speeds and LUT specs. It seems that this extra grunt will be needed to drive the 8K sensors.
It is early to say - but there might eventually be an upgrade path from MG weapon to CF weapon (8K or not).
Time will tell...

Todd Gilpin
04-13-2015, 06:30 AM
Carbon Fiber Weapon must have more processing power. It does higher fps on the ProRes and the LUT capabilities are different as well.

Michael Jensen
04-13-2015, 06:31 AM
Thats a bummer if the magnesium version is not upgradeable to 8k. I'm starting to think I'm waiting wrong line. Hopefully I can move my deposit to the CF version.

shashbugu
04-13-2015, 06:32 AM
They are the same exact body size, one is CF and the other MG, the internal parts could easily be made the same, absolutely no reason why there couldn't be an 8k upgrade path ------ for MG bodies. Everything is just being announced we will know more in a few weeks. I'm pretty sure a little chip can be installed in existing dragons to record Prores. At least we know the technology is there. Its clear bandwidth is very important for both R3D raw and proves to be recorded simultaneously, but we know it can't be that difficult to press a button to singularly record either codec.

Jack Shanahan
04-13-2015, 06:37 AM
This is my question too. I have $$$ of Anton Bauer Batteries -- I have no interest in Redvolt XLs. Is there going to be a brain + sidekick + media upgrade? There are also Typos in this OP. It says "Weapon CF" which is confusing as this is the Magnesium body we are taking about no? Also when I look at my upgrade options on red.com it seems to think I am upgrading to the Dragon Sensor -- which I already have.
So the $34,500 price point is for the Weapon package correct? That means it also includes:1 WEAPON Sidekick (Magnesium)1 WEAPON Base Expander1 WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module1 WEAPON Top Handle1 WEAPON Lemo Adaptor A1 WEAPON Package Case1 1-Year Standard WarrantyThere is no such option as JUST the Brain + Integrated Media Bay.I'm just making sure I get it and it's not my late night brain playing tricks with me.

Christoffer Glans
04-13-2015, 06:39 AM
So the $34,500 price point is for the Weapon package correct? That means it also includes:
1 WEAPON Sidekick (Magnesium)
1 WEAPON Base Expander
1 WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module
1 WEAPON Top Handle
1 WEAPON Lemo Adaptor A
1 WEAPON Package Case
1 1-Year Standard Warranty

There is no such option as JUST the Brain + Integrated Media Bay.

I'm just making sure I get it and it's not my late night brain playing tricks with me.

I don't need the redvolt XL or the top handle, I want to use v-lock batteries and the sliding top handle (because of it's fast detach/attach).
Would be nice if the sum of those went into the camera body upgrade price.

Curran Giddens
04-13-2015, 06:42 AM
There is no such option as JUST the Brain + Integrated Media Bay.

I'm just making sure I get it and it's not my late night brain playing tricks with me.

I'm looking for this option as well. I don't see it.
I don't think I can spend $17k right now to upgrade my Epic-M Dragon. But, $12K for Brain + media bay, along with $5k accessories credit is a possibility, if it were offered.

Patrick Grossien
04-13-2015, 06:43 AM
This is awesome and all... but... I still wish the 6K FF35 Scarlet would be on the horizon somewhere.
I'd grab the CF VV Weapon in a heartbeat if I had the dough. It's a sick camera and a perfect dream :)

I still wish I could have a camera which would give me FF35 (36x24mm) stills and motion.
I know it will never be below $10K as was the plan years ago, but maybe a bit closer to it than $60K or $70K would be nice. ;)

Andy Roberts
04-13-2015, 06:56 AM
Should the original post say: If you already own EPIC-X DRAGON, your trade-in credit towards WEAPON is $15,500 instead of "WEAPON CF" ?
Meaning, this thread is about the NON-CF version, correct? Maybe just a copy/paste issue from the CF thread?

Kemalettin Sert
04-13-2015, 07:09 AM
This is my question too. I have $$$ of Anton Bauer Batteries -- I have no interest in Redvolt XLs. Is there going to be a brain + sidekick + media upgrade? There are also Typos in this OP. It says "Weapon CF" which is confusing as this is the Magnesium body we are taking about no? Also when I look at my upgrade options on red.com it seems to think I am upgrading to the Dragon Sensor -- which I already have.

its same thing.Says your camera worth 15.500$ even if you want magnesium or CF Weapon.

Maik Müller
04-13-2015, 07:26 AM
This is awesome and all... but... I still wish the 6K FF35 Scarlet would be on the horizon somewhere.
I'd grab the CF VV Weapon in a heartbeat if I had the dough. It's a sick camera and a perfect dream :)

I still wish I could have a camera which would give me FF35 (36x24mm) stills and motion.
I know it will never be below $10K as was the plan years ago, but maybe a bit closer to it than $60K or $70K would be nice. ;)
I'm with you Patrick. ;)
Weapon is a dream and 8k Weapon is sick - i would order instantly if i had the cash.
I wish a Scarlet Weapon is coming too...

On the other hand, that new Scarlet-D to Epic-D upgrade-path is tempting.

Jan Reiff
04-13-2015, 07:30 AM
just pressed the button ...
i am joining the club ...

Brian Boyer
04-13-2015, 07:32 AM
I can't recall how it has worked in the past but will I be able to apply the $5,000 Weapon upgrade credit + $5,000 accessory credit to Battle Tested Weapons, if they should become available?

Maik Müller
04-13-2015, 07:37 AM
I can't recall how it has worked in the past but will I be able to apply the $5,000 Weapon upgrade credit + $5,000 accessory credit to Battle Tested Weapons, if they should become available?
Hehe, one can only dream. :)

Gavin Greenwalt
04-13-2015, 07:57 AM
So.... can we apply the $5,000 accessories credit towards the $34,000 or not? I'm still confused on that point. Also is there any special deal for 1.8" card holders?

Total bundle would be:

$34,000 - $15k - $5k for EpicDragon owners then = $15k. $15k I can bite off... maybe. Looks like I'll be sticking with Epic. My ProRes recorder isn't perfect but it's also only worth $500 not $20k.

Elsie N
04-13-2015, 08:00 AM
does no one else wish the $5k accessory creidt could be put toward the trade in credit?

I'm with you on this. Make that happen and I can see a small opening to do the 8k upgrade. Without it, I'm off the upgrade path for now.

Jordan Raabe
04-13-2015, 08:14 AM
There are still a ton of important specs to be released. What the max frame rates of CF and Magnesium are. What the "improved Low Light capabilities" means. RedCode options.

In the mean time, a deposit doesn't sound like a bad idea, but the Weapon Magnesium Stealth option is SO stealth, that it won't actually appear in my cart. Cool feature.

Gavin Greenwalt
04-13-2015, 08:17 AM
Speaking of deposits. Is it refundable? And once "executed" if we back out is the camera dead forever to upgrades like MX?

Steve Sherrick
04-13-2015, 08:22 AM
Impressive release by RED. Need a few more details but from what we know so far, they checked off a lot of things on my wish list. Not the least of which is the auto calibration which I have felt is a much needed feature in 2015. Simultaneous scaled ProRes recording, 3D LUTs, etc are all going to make the camera more desirable. Clearly, Jarred and the rest of the team over there have been listening to those out in the trenches using the cameras. Obviously, still need to get camera in hands and see how it's all implemented, but on paper this looks like a fantastic upgrade.

With all camera announcements these days, I expect the wave of criticism that follows. Often times, that criticism can be productive and lead to better products. A win-win for everyone. Based on a lot of the comments on this thread and in other threads I just wonder if the RED upgrade program has run its course. It inevitably leads to confusion, and it leads to people interjecting their personal financial circumstances to push RED to change terms. It also messes with market value. I think it worked really well from Red One to Epic, but is it time for a more traditional approach? I have no idea what the financial workings are within RED and what makes sense for them as a company. I assume their pricing is what makes sense for them to put out cool products and make some profit so they can sustain themselves as a company. I don't see them making crazy profits and screwing people over. So, unless I am wrong about that the price point for Weapon is in line with what they are offering. If you remove the upgrade program, seems like you would create the following:
- More robust used market
- More resources put towards getting new product to market
- Remove limitations. As better designs are created that can create better cameras not restricted to older components.

I know this kind of flies in the face of Obsolescence Obsolete, however the bigger picture probably has to be looked at too. What's best for the overall industry?

These are just quick thoughts as I watch from afar today.

Elsie N
04-13-2015, 08:23 AM
Speaking of deposits. Is it refundable? And once "executed" if we back out is the camera dead forever to upgrades like MX?

Questions that NEED answering!

Brian Boyer
04-13-2015, 08:26 AM
I don' know if I'm 100% clear on how this works but it seems the $5,000 accessory credit will be necessary in order to even power the camera. From what I can tell, that's $1,150 at minimum. There will be AB and V-lock options coming from Element Technica that may be cheaper.

The accessories that come with the currently available packages adds up to $4,795 (not including the case, which has no price listed). You may not want/need everything in that package but you're going to need some of it. I can already see $1,700 worth that I wouldn't bother with.

Perhaps RED will allow whatever is left over from the accessories credit to apply to the camera credit.

Also, I wonder if media and displays count as accessories under these circumstances.

Daniel Soderberg
04-13-2015, 08:28 AM
$19,000 for Pro res if you give up your Epic dragon? Am I missing something?

No changes to image? Fps? DR? Noise?

Dr. Sassi
04-13-2015, 08:29 AM
Great work RED-Team. Being an indie filmmaker, the CF/Mg upgrade path is not an option right now. I really hope today will be an Weapon-X announcement, pure Aluminum. ;o)

However, thanks for the offer, in all fairness, I read it in this way, the Dragon-X-Brain is $24K right now and you offer $20,5K, which means: I would have payed for a year of Dragon-X $3.5K, that is $10 per day, not bad at all.
I know there are other calculations, and I feel you, I do not argue against them.

Have a great time at NAB



- If you already own EPIC-X DRAGON, your trade-in credit towards WEAPON CF is $15,500 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit. If you own Epic-X Dragon After NAB
begins, your trade in credit is $13,000 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit.


Ruff
04-13-2015, 08:30 AM
I want to upgrade epic m to weapon now.

But the cart is not working.

I have emailed my bomb rep.

I want to get in line and get the discount.

Sergio Perez
04-13-2015, 08:41 AM
Looks like 8K is CF only.

https://support.red.com/entries/92759057

If this is indeed true, then its the end of obsolescence obsolete. The Weapon Magnesium would be a dead end, and against One of Red's founding "moto's"

Arthur Woo
04-13-2015, 08:41 AM
Looking at the upgrade options on the site for magnesium - is there just a brain+media only option? I see it for CF but not for the MG.

Paul Harb
04-13-2015, 08:44 AM
They just dropped in value


It is $24,000 no?

But either way you're right, $19k to upgrade from Epic Dragon is a lot. More than selling the Epic Dragon and buying the Weapon, unless our Epic Dragons just dropped a lot in value.

Martin Stevens
04-13-2015, 08:57 AM
Will there be an ALUMINUM version of WEAPON?

Maik Müller
04-13-2015, 09:00 AM
Will there be an ALUMINUM version of WEAPON?
+1, good question.

Hal Long
04-13-2015, 09:03 AM
Having just sent my Epic-M in for the Dragon upgrade, I'm slightly perplexed by the pricing structure of this announcement. I'll wait to hear specs before making a final determination, but but it stings a bit to realize that it would probably have been about as expensive or at least a better option than upgrading (MX-Dragon-Weapon) as keeping my MX and buying a weapon. Hoping to be proven wrong when the final specs are released. Seriously hoping…

Chris Luker
04-13-2015, 09:04 AM
So it looks like a Dragon is only worth $15k now according to Red? After the $9500 upgrade?
I am crushed.
There is no way I can make the jump this soon after upgrading from Epic to Dragon, after another $10k from Scarlet to Epic. And then add in all of the required accessories.
I guess I just found myself outside of the Red circle.
I should have stayed with Epic.

Jarek Zabczynski
04-13-2015, 09:06 AM
So at first glance the upgrade feels like a kick in the balls… Epic X Dragon to Mag Weapon $34,500 - $15,500 = $19,000 = Ouch!

But if I am doing my math correctly here's what happens…

You get the following included…

WEAPON BRAIN (Magnesium) w/ Integrated Media Bay
1 WEAPON Sidekick (Magnesium)
1 WEAPON Base Expander
1 WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module
1 WEAPON Top Handle
1 WEAPON Lemo Adaptor A
1 WEAPON Package Case
1 1-Year Standard Warranty

That's $4,795 in accessories, some of which you can sell…

Throw in the $5,000 in Red store credit…for things you will buy anyway…

So the actual brain upgrade is more like $9,205 am I right?

Prince Bagdasarian
04-13-2015, 09:08 AM
Same calculations I did. Calling my bomb squad rep shortly to honor whats written clearly there in the red store - which I've been trying to get a deposit on since 2am! Lol


So at first glance the upgrade feels like a kick in the balls… Epic X Dragon to Mag Weapon $34,500 - $15,500 = $19,000 = Ouch!

But if I am doing my math correctly here's what happens…

You get the following included…

WEAPON BRAIN (Magnesium) w/ Integrated Media Bay
1 WEAPON Sidekick (Magnesium)
1 WEAPON Base Expander
1 WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module
1 WEAPON Top Handle
1 WEAPON Lemo Adaptor A
1 WEAPON Package Case
1 1-Year Standard Warranty

That's $4,795 in accessories, some of which you can sell…

Throw in the $5,000 in Red store credit…for things you will buy anyway…

So the actual brain upgrade is more like $9,205 am I right?

Jarek Zabczynski
04-13-2015, 09:15 AM
I think the general concern here is just putting that $19k out front at first. It'd be great to just snag a brain-only upgrade, then build as you'd like.


It would sure make the upgrade easier on the eyes…and your wallet.

Arthur Woo
04-13-2015, 09:20 AM
I see "Improved low light performance" on the website for the Weapon description. Does that mean with the current Dragon sensor w/ LLO OLPF, or is there something new that actually improves the low light performance?

Mark Andersen
04-13-2015, 09:23 AM
So at first glance the upgrade feels like a kick in the balls… Epic X Dragon to Mag Weapon $34,500 - $15,500 = $19,000 = Ouch!

But if I am doing my math correctly here's what happens…

You get the following included…

WEAPON BRAIN (Magnesium) w/ Integrated Media Bay
1 WEAPON Sidekick (Magnesium)
1 WEAPON Base Expander
1 WEAPON REDVOLT XL Module
1 WEAPON Top Handle
1 WEAPON Lemo Adaptor A
1 WEAPON Package Case
1 1-Year Standard Warranty

That's $4,795 in accessories, some of which you can sell…

Throw in the $5,000 in Red store credit…for things you will buy anyway…

So the actual brain upgrade is more like $9,205 am I right?


Thats one way of looking at it. Most of the added goodies are things you are gonna want, or at least part of the basic camera and not fluff. And the credit you will definitely use. I think the deal is more than fair but I know may people are gonna say "the Epic is good enough" and I think RDC expects this to be the case. We are getting into luxury mode here, for those who want the absolute newest and best gear they are going to have to pay. its not like your Epic Dragon is suddenly a pice of crap, its still the second best camera in the world as of today.

Sergio Perez
04-13-2015, 09:24 AM
I honestly think the current Dragon with LLO OLPF is more than enough low light... I was really hoping for 6K Vista Vision from Dragon Weapon, to be honest... Anyway, looking forward to hear everything about the advantages of Weapon Magnesium vs my current Epic Dragon!

Nick Morrison
04-13-2015, 09:32 AM
We'll have to see, but this announcement has beenvery underwhelming so far.

I remember Jarred saying Weapon gets extra DR out of Dragon, and red.com mentions better lowlight....not sure about fps...but if Vista can do 70fps at 8k (right?)...imagine what it could do at 6k, 5k, 4k...

Kemalettin Sert
04-13-2015, 09:39 AM
So any info about intersex module? i just want to use my old Quickplate V Mount Module on Weapon.

Michael Jensen
04-13-2015, 09:42 AM
So confusing. Would love some clarification on whats included for the upgrade price. And can the Magnesium be upgraded to the 8k version?

Isaac Marchionna
04-13-2015, 09:43 AM
Yep, I'm out. Last ride with RED. I love my Dragon but 19.5k+ for what amounts to things long overdue (prores, quieter, ACTUAL MODULES...) just seems too little for the cost.

DC Chavez
04-13-2015, 09:44 AM
As a person who has a stockpile of Anton Bauer batteries (that I use with other gear as well) I have no interest in paying extra for a kit that uses RedVolt XL. Any options for people like me that want a non-XL kit?

Also, Jarred mentioned something a while back about the 1/8" SSD to mini-mag upgrade program. Any news on this?

Terry VerHaar
04-13-2015, 09:47 AM
I feel sorry for Scarlet owners that just dropped 9,5k on a Dragon upgrade just to get 5k credit. They would have been better up spending that on a new Wagon. Way better deal.

As said individual, I will strongly disagree with you. I decided to upgrade to Scarlet Dragon before to keep myself on the possible upgrade path and I am very glad I did. I am very much looking forward to shooting Dragon and, while I probably won't jump on the deposit for Weapon right now, I like that I still have upgrade possibilities, including, it now seems, going to Epic Dragon.

I like my options. If this were a paper asset with no functionality, then maybe it wouldn't be a good deal. But, I get to use this camera every day while I decide on my next move.

Patrick Elliott
04-13-2015, 09:50 AM
This is my initial thought. I am worried to just keep my Epic Dragon after the way the Red One MX was essentially phased out. I know the word is that the Epic Dragons and Scarlet Dragons will be supported for "a long time" but that is not comforting enough.

I also share the same concerns as you Isaac, but my main problem is spending 19.5k+ and then next year being told you cannot upgrade to the next level because I do not have the CF model. That is a ton of money to not be in the loop with the entire upgrade path.

Nick Morrison
04-13-2015, 09:52 AM
Yep, I'm out. Last ride with RED. I love my Dragon but 19.5k+ for what amounts to things long overdue (prores, quieter, ACTUAL MODULES...) just seems too little for the cost.

My guess is Weapon is more than just a body/features upgrade - Jarred has mentioned additional DR, website mentions better lowlight...

But agreed - Weapon appears to be the announcement of a new "elite" line of cameras, and not an evolution of the entire system. At 35k and 50k (and eventually 70k for VV?)....the Weapon line is certainly in a more distinguished price range...

Damien Molineaux
04-13-2015, 09:53 AM
I can't upgrade now.

How about an Epic-X to WEAPON DRAGON 6k Magnesium upgrade path for those that get left out right now, next year?

What do you keep when upgrading form an Epic-Dragon to a WEAPON DRAGON 6k Magnesium ? More than the sensor? Can that not be taken form the Epix-X, or if added at the time of the Dragon upgrade, thatn add it with the Dragon sensor at the time of the Epic-X to WEAPON DRAGON 6k Magnesium upgrade.

Why do you force peopke to upgrade to Dragon now? We have both an Epic-X and an Epic-M Dragon, the Epic-X is cleaner is low light. I don't want to upgrade now, and the truth of the matter is, I can't afford it.

Pity, this forefull incentive to upgrade now or be punished (financially).

Another 2 cents,
Damien

Kemalettin Sert
04-13-2015, 09:59 AM
https://vimeo.com/124391398

Fuck! its turns on in 5 seconds.
http://i.imgur.com/HMHi7RE.gif

Abiodun Shote
04-13-2015, 09:59 AM
Will the current Quickplate Module and the Module Adaptor work with Weapon?

Ivan Cortazar
04-13-2015, 10:04 AM
Same here. I've been with red since early RED ONE. But at this point I can't justify $20,000 plus for this upgrade. Plus another amount later next year for next sensor, 8K?

I think this is great news for rental houses as many indi/owners that were able to take a cut from offering camera+operator services will stay with their current Epic/Scarlets, and rent weapons when need it. But that's just my guess.

Well, it's been a fun ride, and Epic Dragon is more than enough for the kind of work I do anyway.

I know I'll be criticized for saying this, but I have a feeling that other cameras have been getting cheaper and cheaper, and Red has become more and more expensive. That being said, I'm still grateful for all the trade in credits we've benefited in the past years.

Scott C
04-13-2015, 10:06 AM
If Magnesium is a dead-end that will not offer an upgrade path to 8K down the line, I like many others am probably at my last stop on the red train. I bought a hyperdeck shuttle 2 years ago that records ProRes, it cost me $350.

Martin Stevens
04-13-2015, 10:07 AM
Does the WEAPON M Upgrade Package come with an OLPF? If it does, it does not say which one?

Jarred Land
04-13-2015, 10:08 AM
I see "Improved low light performance" on the website for the Weapon description. Does that mean with the current Dragon sensor w/ LLO OLPF, or is there something new that actually improves the low light performance?

The Weapon squeezes about half a stop extra out of the Dragon sensor from the new internal processing.

There are new OLPFs as well for Weapon optically matching but the carriers are smart that will automatically tell the Weapon what OLPF is inside it so you don't need to manually switch when you change filters.

Zeb B
04-13-2015, 10:12 AM
When is this page going to be updated?
http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon#tech-specs

Alex Boothby
04-13-2015, 10:19 AM
Confused about the upgrade path for Lens Mount. On Red.com it says:

"When it is time... you will be responsible for shipping the BRAIN®, Side SSD Module, and a lens mount (PL mount required, if applicable) to a RED upgrade facility."

So, does red give us our same lens mount back, installed on Weapon, or do they keep it for some reason?

Alex Boothby
04-13-2015, 10:21 AM
There are new OLPFs as well for Weapon optically matching but the carriers are smart that will automatically tell the Weapon what OLPF is inside it so you don't need to manually switch when you change filters.

LOVE the sound of that! Much better for the rental crowd.

David Ellison
04-13-2015, 10:22 AM
In a weird way I'm kind of relieved,
only half a stop extra low light, ok there's DNR news to come but I can't imagine it being a huge amount better.

I'd rather it be too expensive and not that huge a leap than the other way round, I'm done spending money for a bit.

Adam Johnson
04-13-2015, 10:29 AM
Yup.

Pricing is starting to compete with Arri...which takes a lot of us out of the game. Oh well, its been a fun ride and Dragon is worth a hell of a lot more than what I'm being told. Will continue to shoot on it and make beautiful images.




In a weird way I'm kind of relieved,
only half a stop extra low light, ok there's DNR news to come but I can't imagine it being a huge amount better.

I'd rather it be too expensive and not that huge a leap than the other way round, I'm done spending money for a bit.

Jeff Kilgroe
04-13-2015, 10:33 AM
Same here. I've been with red since early RED ONE. But at this point I can't justify $20,000 plus for this upgrade. Plus another amount later next year for next sensor, 8K?

8K sensor is $10K if you buy now (pre-paid in full). It's $20K if you wait until later (ouch).

I suppose everyone needs to take a deep breath and study the upgrade packages for what they are. It may or may not be worth it or make sense in all cases. But keep in mind that for the cost of the new brain alone, the upgrade packages are including $2K+ worth of extra accessories. Then you get your trade-in allowance when you send in your current brain + an additional $5K accessories credit when you reserve your upgrade during NAB.

So, if you currently have an EPIC-X Dragon to trade, then it works out like this: $34,500 for the magnesium upgrade package - less your $15,500 - less $5K accessories credit since you'll need new stuff anyway. So that's $19K and if you figure the base module, lemo adapter and top handle with the bundle, that makes a difference too. You would have to sell your current EPIC brain for over $22K to do better and you would still need to reserve your Weapon now, during NAB, to get the $5K accessories credit. Selling an EPIC-X Dragon now for $22K+, that's a stretch considering they're $27.5K new with the Ti PL mount right now with full warranty. And for most of us who have to pay taxes on the purchase, the trade-in offsets the final purchase price and gives us a bit more savings there too.

The more I look at this and play with all the numbers, I have to say that the deal is pretty amazing. What sucks is that the timing to get the most out of it all is not going to work for everyone. There is also a big difference in perception, depending on how long you have owned EPIC and the Dragon upgrade. For those of us who have had EPIC since early 2011 and have had Dragon since the beginning -- a bit over a year now -- this upgrade is a no-brainer. For those who have only recently bought into EPIC and/or Dragon, it can be a big pill to swallow.


I know I'll be criticized for saying this, but I have a feeling that other cameras have been getting cheaper and cheaper, and Red has become more and more expensive. That being said, I'm still grateful for all the trade in credits we've benefited in the past years.

RED cameras are creeping upwards in price, but they're also increasing in capability as well and evolving a lot more rapidly than the competition. That said, they're still cameras and no one camera is right for every job or every person. While they are getting more expensive compared to some of the previous offerings, they are still a far better value than what Sony and Arri are offering. OTOH, 4K cameras are everywhere these days and some are very cheap. So an EPIC Dragon or Weapon is a lot of camera to buy into if the need is to just acquire acceptable 4K imagery.

Arthur Woo
04-13-2015, 10:34 AM
It would be good to know if Magnesium Weapon is end of line for Dragon if it's not 8K compatible moving fwd.

Luke Neumann
04-13-2015, 10:43 AM
Specs would be great. Like to know what I spend $10+k on.

CJ Roy
04-13-2015, 10:44 AM
So, if you currently have an EPIC-X Dragon to trade, then it works out like this: $34,500 for the magnesium upgrade package - less your $15,500 - less $5K accessories credit since you'll need new stuff anyway.

Are you sure this is the case? On the first post of this thread it looks like there's only a trade in for the CF body.



- If you already own EPIC-X DRAGON, your trade-in credit towards WEAPON CF is $15,500 plus a $5000

Is this a typo / cut & paste issue from the CF Upgrade announcement?

David Ellison
04-13-2015, 10:46 AM
8K sensor is $10K if you buy now (pre-paid in full). It's $20K if you wait until later (ouch).

I suppose everyone needs to take a deep breath and study the upgrade packages for what they are. It may or may not be worth it or make sense in all cases. But keep in mind that for the cost of the new brain alone, the upgrade packages are including $2K+ worth of extra accessories. Then you get your trade-in allowance when you send in your current brain + an additional $5K accessories credit when you reserve your upgrade during NAB.

So, if you currently have an EPIC-X Dragon to trade, then it works out like this: $34,500 for the magnesium upgrade package - less your $15,500 - less $5K accessories credit since you'll need new stuff anyway. So that's $19K and if you figure the base module, lemo adapter and top handle with the bundle, that makes a difference too. You would have to sell your current EPIC brain for over $22K to do better and you would still need to reserve your Weapon now, during NAB, to get the $5K accessories credit. Selling an EPIC-X Dragon now for $22K+, that's a stretch considering they're $27.5K new with the Ti PL mount right now with full warranty. And for most of us who have to pay taxes on the purchase, the trade-in offsets the final purchase price and gives us a bit more savings there too.

The more I look at this and play with all the numbers, I have to say that the deal is pretty amazing. What sucks is that the timing to get the most out of it all is not going to work for everyone. There is also a big difference in perception, depending on how long you have owned EPIC and the Dragon upgrade. For those of us who have had EPIC since early 2011 and have had Dragon since the beginning -- a bit over a year now -- this upgrade is a no-brainer. For those who have only recently bought into EPIC and/or Dragon, it can be a big pill to swallow.



RED cameras are creeping upwards in price, but they're also increasing in capability as well and evolving a lot more rapidly than the competition. That said, they're still cameras and no one camera is right for every job or every person. While they are getting more expensive compared to some of the previous offerings, they are still a far better value than what Sony and Arri are offering. OTOH, 4K cameras are everywhere these days and some are very cheap. So an EPIC Dragon or Weapon is a lot of camera to buy into if the need is to just acquire acceptable 4K imagery.

I think if there were more time than the week of NAB to get half of this stuff, just feels like RED knows only the top guys can buy this new elite camera and everyone else who could save up for it won't be given the time to do that and by the time they have will have to pay double for a new sensor... all because they aren't loaded right now.

Fair to the guys with money... sucks to be a guy who doesn't.

Paul Russell
04-13-2015, 10:48 AM
About a year after I bought my Epic-M the price plummeted. The same will happen next year.
The Weapon is a high end beast, but I live in a low-end country :-(

Jordan Buck
04-13-2015, 10:53 AM
Arthur to my knowledge this is the case - but what I want to know is if in the future when Vista is available if a magnesium to 8k upgrade will be available as this to me makes the most sense if you don't have the extra money to dump on carbon right now and then 8K as well.

Like Jeff said, i'm in the latter I have not had my dragon for long, 5 months, but for me I always knew this was coming and I knew I was late to the dragon party.

If you have ready funds, going in now while NAB is on it works out a pretty decent saving, also thinking about how much ill get for my current accessories I wont be using - yes it wont be much but its still something it all comes together.

So when I look at my original investment (second hand MX ) and the two upgrades to have a brand new Weapon its a no brainer for me I have gone from a second hand camera to a brand new one at a discounted cost with money spread over time and also the camera has helped me earn the money to make that possible.
Also, if I decide I am unhappy, 90 days after I recieve it I can sell it on - if I cant make the equivalent money of the depreciation that the 90 days will take, then I shouldn't be spending so much money on cameras.

The only thing that I am disappointed in is that I didn't have the necessary information to make an educated decision of magnesium over carbon etc. whilst still wanting to be ahead of the line, in the end it came down to money, the carbon was just too much.

Im looking forward to the full specs, and also to see what they can squeeze out of the new hardware in weapon, its still early days, where as the hardware in epic has been in R&D for a long time.

Brian Boyer
04-13-2015, 11:00 AM
You would have to sell your current EPIC brain for over $22K to do better and you would still need to reserve your Weapon now, during NAB, to get the $5K accessories credit....

What sucks is that the timing to get the most out of it all is not going to work for everyone.

I was confused on this point as well (and still may be) but it sounds like the $5,000 accessory credit only being good during NAB is for NEW Weapon purchases, not upgrades.

Per Brent (emphasis is mine):


The $5000 WEAPON accessory credit is only during NAB for new camera orders. The $5000 Weapon accessory credit extends past NAB for Dragon to Weapon upgrades.

Also, per Jarred in the beginning of this thread (again, emphasis in cyan is mine):


- If you own SCARLET-X DRAGON before NAB, credit towards WEAPON is $5000 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit. If you own Scarlet-X Dragon After NAB
begins, your trade in is $2500 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit .

New Weapon camera orders will only receive the $5000 Weapon accessory credit during the week of NAB.

Jordan Buck
04-13-2015, 11:01 AM
I hope that is not true - It was a big deciding factor for me.

Ivan Cortazar
04-13-2015, 11:05 AM
I agree with this, but back when the redone appeared, there was absolutely nothing like it. That was one of the reasons I jumped in. Brain I think it was $17.500, and the competition, which could not do Raw or more than HD was over $100.000!! The gap was way larger in all aspects. Yes, now there is nothing in the market like Weapon and it will be the best camera in the market (for most of the jobs that need the best image, and options), no question about that but at these prices of upgrades, brain, accessories etc... I feel something has changed from the early days. Not complaining, just looking at the numbers. And I have a sad feeling that Red is getting closer to the bigger studios and further from the indie operator/owner. Because for instance, in my personal work, I could care less for the magnesium, Carbon fiber or what not, but if aluminum is cheaper, I'll take that, I'll even take hard stone if that means $5,000 less :-) But of course I'd love to own a CF. I've never flown my dragon on a drone or I think I will anyway or I havent gone to the everest with my Epic. I think Epic Aluminum is already so light. I used to back back with my redone, so Epic Dragon is a feather anyway. And the extra pounds in the indie work I do, aren't worth the extra $. But by making people needing the CF in order to get the 8K, future VV, definitively makes things more expensive, if I understood the things correctly. Also having 3 days to decide the upgrade in order to get the $5,000 credit, I find it too short considering the big amount of cash that this upgrade means.


8K sensor is $10K if you buy now (pre-paid in full). It's $20K if you wait until later (ouch).

RED cameras are creeping upwards in price, but they're also increasing in capability as well and evolving a lot more rapidly than the competition. That said, they're still cameras and no one camera is right for every job or every person. While they are getting more expensive compared to some of the previous offerings, they are still a far better value than what Sony and Arri are offering. OTOH, 4K cameras are everywhere these days and some are very cheap. So an EPIC Dragon or Weapon is a lot of camera to buy into if the need is to just acquire acceptable 4K imagery.

Santiago Marti
04-13-2015, 11:08 AM
I know it is not a mandatory update, but if later on I won't be able to upgrade the sensor, then I don't see the point. A lot of money for practically the same camera, at least the same image. So people with brand new Weapons will have to charge more to recover the investment and compete with lower priced Dragons.
I am sad, since 2008 I've been with Red. Now I have the feeling I'm stepping down. I really wanted VV 8K, but price is prohibitive, and you have to pay a lot of money now, and all the options are not clear at all, or at least I still don't get, or I don't wan't to see it clearly.

I am sad as hell, I want to cry. Please, clarify some things if possible, like upgrade path of magnesium weapon to another sensor sometime.

Sorry for the rant, but it is a sad day for me, I didn't want to leave Red behind, but I have no choice. I still love my Dragon, best camera out there for me personally, but I may sell it, every camera manufacturer is lowering prices, Dragon itself is being depreciated officially, really don't know what to do. Glass seems a safer bet economically.

Tyler Dreher
04-13-2015, 11:12 AM
I don't understand 19,000 for a new body when I paid 9,500 for a new sensor. How is the body more than the sensor? Valuing the Dragon at 15 hurts too. Maybe if there was a bigger discount for people who have followed the upgrade path and spent more than people who have just bought a dragon x. Props for still doing the upgrade program though.

Luke Neumann
04-13-2015, 11:14 AM
Dragon itself is being depreciated officially, really don't know what to do. Glass seems a safer bet economically.

Have to say I agree. Barring a major announcement on frame rates or low light sensitivity (which...from an ethical stand point, should be on the site, ready to go before you even think of taking pre orders).

The cameras are great, the images are great. This upgrade path thing has reached circus levels in this iteration and I personally am bowing out as well. I will use my Dragon M for most of my projects this summer, sell it, eat the costs, and use the BM 4.6K URSA until CF Vista Vision is in the RED Store and then just buy new or used CF Vista Vision.

I'm sure RED has poured over the numbers and the current "deal" is the best they could do. However, it does draw a line in the sand for a lot of us. What are we willing to pay for ProRes? The BMCC 4.6K URSA shoots 120fps 4.6k raw AND ProRes simultaneously. No accessories, great build...$7,000.

The line in the sand is $20-$25,000 for an extra 1,500 lines of resolution and possibly a few hundred fps?

Can't justify it on my end.

Vista Vision will be a different story. It makes a lot more sense than going from Dragon to Weapon (again, at this point. Announced specs could change my tune).

Luke Neumann
04-13-2015, 11:28 AM
Specs up on the site. Looks like 20-30 more FPS in each mode.





Nope.

Zeb B
04-13-2015, 11:28 AM
Specs are up

http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon#tech-specs

Not seeing Frame Rate v Compression Ratio

Ryan Sheets
04-13-2015, 11:29 AM
Says lower light capability online...anyone know details on that?

Nook Kim
04-13-2015, 11:31 AM
So now BMD is new Red??

Arthur Woo
04-13-2015, 11:32 AM
Says lower light capability online...anyone know details on that?
Jarred mentioned half a stop more

Ryan Sauve
04-13-2015, 11:35 AM
Well that was an easy decision after looking at the specs. Looking forward to a few more great years with Epic Dragon and then we'll see where things go in the camera industry and go from there.

Looking forward to all the accessories that are going to flood the market over the next year! Totally relieved I didn't jump on the mini REDMags bandwagon.

sam karr
04-13-2015, 11:37 AM
Well that was an easy decision after looking at the specs. Looking forward to a few more great years with Epic Dragon and then we'll see where things go in the camera industry and go from there.

Yes it seems it is definitely just a body upgrade.

Milan S.
04-13-2015, 11:38 AM
Specs are up

http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon#tech-specs

Not seeing Frame Rate v Compression Ratio

Slight bump.

Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1
12 and 16-bit RAW : Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1
1–100 fps 6K
1–120 fps 5K, 4.5K 

1–150 fps 4K
1–200 fps 3K 

1–300 fps 2K

Jarek Zabczynski
04-13-2015, 11:45 AM
Specs are up

http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon#tech-specs

Not seeing Frame Rate v Compression Ratio

No mention of HDMI 2.0 yet.

Jeff Kilgroe
04-13-2015, 11:45 AM
I was confused on this point as well (and still may be) but it sounds like the $5,000 accessory credit only being good during NAB is for NEW Weapon purchases, not upgrades.

Yep, you're right. Those who are upgrading an existing camera at a later date still get the accessories credit.

Daniel Soderberg
04-13-2015, 11:54 AM
Specs would be great. Like to know what I spend $10+k on.

Exactly. Where are the rest of the specs?

Nick Morrison
04-13-2015, 11:55 AM
Yes it seems it is definitely just a body upgrade.

Weapon looks like a renters dream....but owners with an Epic Dragon look they have a similar engine under the hood, even if less streamlined/ergonomic, etc...

Luke Neumann
04-13-2015, 12:01 PM
The silver lining in all of this...only people that NEED the ProRes will pay the premium. So it looks like current Dragon (as long as the price stays the same in the store) shouldn't lose nearly as much value.

From where I stand, the Dragon is now the best value if you're just looking for performance vs. cost.

Douglas Quill
04-13-2015, 12:15 PM
I'm really disappointed with this news. I became a Red owner because I like the camera, it's affordable, and because of the upgrade program. They just forced the MX to Dragon upgrade by announcing they are discontinuing the upgrade program in the summer,

knowing they have a new camera around the corner. Now they are devaluing the worth of the Dragon 50%?? Their next step will most likely be to discontinue the Epic Dragon to the Weapon upgrade -- forcing another upgrade. Their marketing tactics have grown

unfair and dishonest, in my opinion. The cost of the Weapon seems pretty comparable to an Alexa, so this better be one hell of a camera. If the math works out, I would certainly consider dropping Red all together and switching to Alexa.