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View Full Version : Announcing Weapon 6K Carbon Fiber



Jarred Land
04-13-2015, 02:12 AM
http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1428986860.jpg

http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon

$49,500 Brain + Media Bay + CF Sidekick + Magnesium PL mount


Trade-in credit amount:

- If you already own a EPIC CF DRAGON, your trade-in credit towards WEAPON CF is $22,500 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit. If you purchase Epic CF Dragon After NAB
begins, your trade in credit is $20,000 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit

- If you already own a EPIC-M DRAGON your trade-in credit towards WEAPON CF is $17,500 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit. If you own Epic-M Dragon After NAB
begins, your trade in credit is $15,000 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit

- If you already own EPIC-X DRAGON, your trade-in credit towards WEAPON CF is $15,500 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit. If you own Epic-X Dragon After NAB
begins, your trade in credit is $13,000 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit.

- If you own SCARLET-X DRAGON before NAB, credit towards WEAPON is $5000 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit. If you own Scarlet-X Dragon After NAB
begins, your trade in is $2500 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit .

Your $5000 accessory credit will remain until you are ready to upgrade to Weapon, and is not limited to NAB week.

Optionally, if you wish to purchase Weapon new ( not upgrade your camera ) you will receive the $5000 accessory credit, but only if you purchase the new Weapon during NAB.

- Simultaneous R3D and Apple Prores recording in-camera

- Records R3D and scaled version of same footage as ProRes. For example 6K master, and 2K ProRes up to 120fps.

- Files recorded simultaneously to same media

- Consistent naming and internally accurate timecode (easier workflow than external recorder)

- Apple ProRes 4444XQ, 4444, 422HQ, 422 or 422LT

- As well as tethered streaming ProRes - ProRes recorded proxy can be sent to Ethernet, while R3D master sent to media

- 33x33x33 3D LUTs

- Faster Data throughput. Up to 50% higher data rates to card. Existing RED MINI-MAG 512GB cards are already ready for transfer speed increase

- Dual monitor ports on Brain for EVF/LCDs.

- Automatic sensor calibration. Select exposure times from 1/8000s to 1/8s without calibrating. Wider operating band for sensor temperature

- Better thermal management, Lower fan noise with no front fans and more stable operating temperature

- Integrated top-plate

- Integrated wireless control connectivity

- Interchangeable and removable I/O options with accessible port placement.

- Interchangeable OLPFs with smart detection of which OLPF is installed.

- Monitor flip and mirror on all outputs, including SDI.

- Integrated dual digital front microphones

Zeb B
04-13-2015, 02:12 AM
TaDah!!

Dragon Monochrome Upgrade path?

Weight diff between the CF and the Mag?

Vincent Larsson
04-13-2015, 02:12 AM
Dibs!

Ketch Rossi
04-13-2015, 02:13 AM
Carbon Weapon looks ever sexier... And incredibly POWERFUL!!

Erich Roland
04-13-2015, 02:13 AM
nice

David Battistella
04-13-2015, 02:14 AM
Wow!

Patrick Tresch
04-13-2015, 02:15 AM
-Better thermal management, Lower fan noise with no front fans and more stable operating temperature



Bravo to all RED team! Thanks

Pat

luigivaltulini
04-13-2015, 02:15 AM
aAAHAHAAHAAHAHAHAH BOOOOOOOOMMMMMM :;)

Sailas Vanetti
04-13-2015, 02:15 AM
BOOOOOOOMMMM!!!!

Ketch Rossi
04-13-2015, 02:16 AM
Shit!!

Just realized the prize point on this... BRAVO!!

Nathan Garofalos
04-13-2015, 02:16 AM
Link to place deposit....?!

Russ Fill
04-13-2015, 02:17 AM
Well here I go back in again.
Thanks Red.

Alexander Christ
04-13-2015, 02:18 AM
444XQ, LUTs, simultaneous recording, automatic calibration, good news... really good

Oliver_G
04-13-2015, 02:18 AM
Take my money, just take it......

Erich Roland
04-13-2015, 02:18 AM
CF side kick?

Phil Holland
04-13-2015, 02:18 AM
:) The smile is big.

I really sincerely hope that it is noted just how compact and powerful this full production camera actually is.

Just because I know people will ask. Will you be able to record "only ProRes"?

Automatic sensor calibration. I love it. So hard.

And something I didn't know yet is the smart detection of OLPFs! That's freaking awesome.

Jarred Land
04-13-2015, 02:18 AM
Everything will be live on RED.COM shortly.

Sorry for the delay.. one of our hotels had a fire drill here... 30 flights of stairs...

Frank Mirbach
04-13-2015, 02:19 AM
Finally :)

Frank Mirbach
04-13-2015, 02:21 AM
Will there be a CF version only of weapon ? Oops, just saw it...Pretty awesome guys !!

Mike P.
04-13-2015, 02:21 AM
How much does it weigh?

Sanjin Jukic
04-13-2015, 02:21 AM
Amazing!!!!!!!!!!

Uros Zuraj
04-13-2015, 02:22 AM
i love how it doesnt take Epic or Dragon out of the game due to a price point so those will stay on the market for a while

Nathan Garofalos
04-13-2015, 02:22 AM
Frame Rates... ?!?!

Phil Holland
04-13-2015, 02:23 AM
Everything will be live on RED.COM shortly.

Sorry for the delay.. one of our hotels had a fire drill here... 30 flights of stairs...

The competition will do anything these days :)

Björn Benckert
04-13-2015, 02:25 AM
So the big question how do we get this the fastest... just buy one or upgrade?

I´m a bit squeezed as our dragon M got stolen, Piper told me I can get in line for an upgrade with that serial number, but I need to buy a dragon to trade in... Question is if I should just jump on the offer to buy a weapon carbon directly without upgrading and not having to go trough the hassle of buying a camera in between.... Delivery times etc will all play a big part for that decision for sure. I have to roll a dice or something. Lol.

Brent Carter
04-13-2015, 02:26 AM
I am serious, all of BOMB SQUAD at NAB is in a parking lot after evacuation. Including my wife.

Ketch Rossi
04-13-2015, 02:27 AM
I am serious, all of BOMB SQUAD at NAB is in a parking lot after evacuation. Including my wife.

Crap!

Nick Morrison
04-13-2015, 02:27 AM
:) The smile is big.

I really sincerely hope that it is noted just how compact and powerful this full production camera actually is.

Just because I know people will ask. Will you be able to record "only ProRes"?

Automatic sensor calibration. I love it. So hard.

And something I didn't know yet is the smart detection of OLPFs! That's freaking awesome.

Auto sensor callibration - does that mean no more blackshading?

Phil Holland
04-13-2015, 02:28 AM
I am serious, all of BOMB SQUAD at NAB is in a parking lot after evacuation. Including my wife.

Nothing like a quick 2am jog down the stairs to wake you up in the morning. Damn that sucks.

Brent Carter
04-13-2015, 02:28 AM
TaDah!!

Dragon Monochrome Upgrade path?

Weight diff between the CF and the Mag?

Yes, WEAPON monochrome in dev...

Björn Benckert
04-13-2015, 02:28 AM
Auto sensor callibration - does that mean no more blackshading?

My guess is, black shade once / after upgrade and the camera sorts the rest.

Hrvoje Simic
04-13-2015, 02:29 AM
Hats off guys...congrats.

Rob Anderson
04-13-2015, 02:32 AM
The features are incredible. The simultaneous recording of R3D RAW + ProRes is sick. Automatic sensor calibration is wonderful.

Pricing though.. Hm.

I paid $50,000 for a Dragon CF outright. With $22,500 credit towards the Weapon, that makes this upgraded camera total out-of-pocket @ $77,000 invested (Dragon + Weapon upgrade). Granted, most companies wouldn't even offer a trade-in program so just getting credit towards the next thing is a bonus. Firmly understood and appreciated. That being said, if I had stuck with an aluminum Epic-X Dragon (instead of springing for the CF), it would have been $31,000 outright plus $34,000 (difference of Weapon price after trade-in Epic-X Dragon credit). So my investment to get to the Weapon CF would only be $65,000. I'd have saved $12,000 going aluminum Dragon to CF Weapon. Bummer. Wasn't expecting that.

Humberto Ramos
04-13-2015, 02:32 AM
Everything will be live on RED.COM shortly.

Sorry for the delay.. one of our hotels had a fire drill here... 30 flights of stairs...


Do it fast when you have an opportunity, cause after this announcement, probably your in hotel will have a bomb threat!

Joan Poggio
04-13-2015, 02:33 AM
The REVOLUTION is alive!!! Fuck YEAH!!!

Joshua Hoareau
04-13-2015, 02:33 AM
http://www.red.com/store/products/weapon-woven-cf-brain-deposit

Phil Holland
04-13-2015, 02:33 AM
Auto sensor callibration - does that mean no more blackshading?

Jarred's post:

- Automatic sensor calibration. Select exposure times from 1/8000s to 1/8s without calibrating. Wider operating band for sensor temperature

Which means you'll likely Black Shade and you'll have a usable operating range of 1/8000-1/8s within that calibration range. Which is very powerful for those going between normal speed and high speed shooting.

Which means, if you can store multiple Black Shades you can likely just fire off a slow exposure one you can use for timelapse or long exposures. It also means you can save your Motion Mount Black Shade on there too if all 4 banks are still available.

Zeb B
04-13-2015, 02:34 AM
Yes, WEAPON monochrome in dev...

Thx! Is there a timetable for that? I have two Dragons, one color one mono. If only one can be upgraded then I'm stuck managing two sets of accessories

Weight diff between CF and Mag?

Joe Kleber
04-13-2015, 02:41 AM
Is the Brain Deposit Link not live yet? Has anyone else been able to add it to your cart?

Stephen Lovett
04-13-2015, 02:45 AM
Not yet, the store is still stating that I don't have a camera eligible for upgrade. I'm sure it will be sorted soon

Joe Kleber
04-13-2015, 02:50 AM
SUCCESS!!! CF WEAPON ORDERED!!!!

David Baumber
04-13-2015, 02:52 AM
Slightly confused.... does the $10,000 'deposit' secure the 2016 8K camera for a total of $49,500 or will it be more after that?

So I upgrade to Weapon CF then extra $10K for 8K rez?

Rob Anderson
04-13-2015, 02:55 AM
Oops.. forgot the NAB accessory credit. Updated.
Ah that's a nice perk. Also just found the Weapon packages. Looking good now. With the NAB accessory credit, plus the accessory packages, plus the 8K sensor discount, AND the woven CF... Now I'm excited. Very, very cool.

Ordered. Thanks Jarred.

Jordan Buck
04-13-2015, 02:55 AM
how do I get in line for Europe?
option seems to only be on US site?

Brent Carter
04-13-2015, 02:56 AM
Slightly confused.... does the $10,000 'deposit' secure the 2016 8K camera for a total of $49,500 or will it be more after that?

So I upgrade to Weapon CF then extra $10K for 8K rez?

It means you pay $10K now to go from 6K to 8K when available. After this week, that price will be a lot more...

So, yes, you are only paying $10K for the upgrade to 8K form 6K, all in.

Brent Carter
04-13-2015, 02:57 AM
how do I get in line for Europe?
option seems to only be on US site?

Pushing live each thing as quickly as we can...

Jordan Buck
04-13-2015, 02:57 AM
Sorry you guys are doing a great job - I'm just impatient. haha

Justen Nguyen
04-13-2015, 03:00 AM
Can't wait to see these things in person

luigivaltulini
04-13-2015, 03:00 AM
Brent, sorry, but

If you own EPIC CF DRAGON before NAB, credit towards WEAPON CF is $ 22.500 to $ 5000 plus weapon accessory credit. If you own Epic CF After NAB
starts, price is $ 20,000.

in total before NAB be a credit of 27500.
total after nab be 20000? or 25000?

Brent Carter
04-13-2015, 03:03 AM
The $5000 WEAPON accessory credit is only during NAB for new camera orders. The $5000 Weapon accessory credit extends past NAB for Dragon to Weapon upgrades.


Brent, sorry, but

If you own EPIC CF DRAGON before NAB, credit towards WEAPON CF is $ 22.500 to $ 5000 plus weapon accessory credit. If you own Epic CF After NAB
starts, price is $ 20,000.

in total before NAB be a credit of 27500.
total after nab be 20000? or 25000?

luigivaltulini
04-13-2015, 03:18 AM
The $5000 WEAPON accessory credit is only during NAB for new camera orders. The $5000 Weapon accessory credit extends past NAB for Dragon to Weapon upgrades.

Brent not possible to upgrade my Carbon to Weapon CF ????

You currently have no serial numbers eligible for this program.

is a problem to web site?

Jordan Buck
04-13-2015, 03:18 AM
Is there any word on final spec difference between magnesium and CF?

Bob Gundu
04-13-2015, 03:19 AM
IS there going to be an AB and Vlock module?

Jarred Land
04-13-2015, 03:22 AM
IS there going to be an AB and Vlock module?

Yes, Our Element Technica is making those, as well as a few other goodies.

Stacey Spears
04-13-2015, 03:22 AM
The upgrade package does not appear to include a mount, but the details say that we must include the PL Mount when sending in for upgrade. (Does have the if applicable clause)

Rob Anderson
04-13-2015, 03:25 AM
For anyone else taking a hard look at how the pricing with upgrades and incentives shakes out, here's the up front deal:

Paid $50,000 for Dragon CF. Paying $49,500 for Weapon CF plus $10,000 for 8K upgrade. Getting $22,500 trade-in credit (Dragon CF to Weapon CF), plus $5,000 accessory credit, plus $10,000 reduced price for 8K upgrade. Total outlay to get to Weapon 8K will be $37,000 'more dollars' for a total platform investment of $87,000.

Assuming the Weapon CF 8K platform will cost approximately $69,500 ($49,500 base Weapon CF price plus the $20,000 8K post-NAB sensor upgrade quoted here), this is a net 'loss' of $17,500 (less an additional $5,000 in accessory credit) to buy and own the Dragon CF then trade-in to buy and own the Weapon CF 8K camera, versus buying the Weapon CF 8K outright.

So if you were able to make at least $17,500 off of your Dragon camera, then you're saving money and you will have added years of 6K workflow under your belt.

Speaking honestly; this is not the amount of credit I had hope to be getting and the upgrade path is much steeper than had been expected. That being said, no other company in the world even offers a trade-in and when you crush the numbers as I did above, it's an impressive value. I also believe this is RED's forward-thinking plan to minimize the value problems people have been complaining about. With steeper upgrade cliffs and less trade-in credit, RED brains will hold value longer.

Thanks guys. I've pulled the rip cord on the Weapon CF with 8K sensor upgrade and I look forward to doing the same for the rest of my Dragon bodies.

Björn Benckert
04-13-2015, 03:26 AM
The Europe page is not working... when ordering there is a message saying some items been removed from the list... I only get the accessories not the actually brain tried both buying and upgrading...

Edit I make the order with us fag in the upper right corner then when checking out the camera is taken out of the deal... whats up with that?

When clicking on the camera link on the uk page I get to this: http://eu.red.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=WEAPON+DRAGON?utm_source=red.com&utm_medium=store_slide&utm_campaign=WEAPON_Launch_NAB_2015

Jordan Buck
04-13-2015, 03:29 AM
Bjorn I'm not even seeing the option on the europe page for upgrade just accessories? or did you try going through US site?

Stacey Spears
04-13-2015, 03:33 AM
For anyone else taking a hard look at how the pricing with upgrades and incentives shakes out, here's the up front deal:


Rob, don't forget there is the base expander, top handle and redvolt xl included in the upgrade.

Jarred Land
04-13-2015, 03:33 AM
Ah that's a nice perk. Also just found the Weapon packages. Looking good now. With the NAB accessory credit, plus the accessory packages, plus the 8K sensor discount, AND the woven CF... Now I'm excited. Very, very cool.

Ordered. Thanks Jarred.

Thanks. It is the foundation of our Obsolescence Obsolete. Obsolescence Obsolete is not about making things that never improve or move forward, Obsolescence Obsolete is the pathway for our customers to have trade-in options as they go along when things need to change to move forward.

That is usually with Brains and Sensors, and sometimes with accessories. Its up to you guys if you want to buy new, upgrade what you have, or stay with what you have. The ability to have all those options is pretty unique and we think it's a pretty good system and a great value for our customers.

WesG
04-13-2015, 03:35 AM
Thanks Jarred for all the options
I love my Epic M Dragon even more
whoop
wes

Stacey Spears
04-13-2015, 03:35 AM
The included accessories and the extra $5k credit was a nice surprise not mentioned in the original post. :) Thankful for that. Now, anyone interested in a kidney? I have a spare. :)

Björn Benckert
04-13-2015, 03:35 AM
Please, make the Europe page work... can not order from europe at the moment, only accessories.


Edit now it works thanx.

Jordan Buck
04-13-2015, 03:39 AM
Bjorn its popping up now - keeping an eye on it.

I still can't decide between Mag and CF, really want to know exactly what I am paying for with the extra cash, the option to go to 8K, CF body, and a difference in LUTs, but will it affect frame rates etc.?

Ziad Oakes
04-13-2015, 03:42 AM
Not sure if this has been answered already.
But if we've purchased the extended armoury for dragon will this also be passed on to the weapon when its upgraded?
Also after the upgrade M and X will no longer apply right, and serial numbers will be the same or changed.
Just curious.
Thanks,
Z

Rob Anderson
04-13-2015, 03:43 AM
Thanks. It is the foundation of our Obsolescence Obsolete. Obsolescence Obsolete is not about making things that never improve or move forward, Obsolescence Obsolete is the pathway for our customers to have trade-in options as they go along when things need to change to move forward.

That is usually with Brains and Sensors, and sometimes with accessories. Its up to you guys if you want to buy new, upgrade what you have, or stay with what you have. The ability to have all those options is pretty unique and we think it's a pretty good system and a great value for our customers.
The other thing I realize this Weapon trade-in path does is fix a major complaint RED owners have had from the beginning; with each product cycle, the trade-in values are substantial and the upgrade price relatively inexpensive. This causes an immediate plummet in the value of the previous brain. With steeper upgrade cliffs and more constrained trade-in credit, this isn't going to happen moving from Dragon to Weapon. Great news for all RED owners and the entire RED ecosystem overall.

After crushing the numbers and considering everything (notably that no other company even offers a trade-in program), the numbers look good and I appreciate what you guys have done.

Thanks for the great work. You're obviously going to get some backlash because this trade-in program is an adjustment and does change things. I only hope most owners will take the time to do what I did and consider everything involved.

Sanity-check for Dragon CF to Weapon CF owners:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?130607-Announcing-Weapon-6K-Carbon-Fiber&p=1494787&viewfull=1#post1494787

Sanity-check for Dragon-X to Weapon Magnesium owners:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?130606-Announcing-WEAPON-DRAGON-6k-Magnesium&p=1494809&viewfull=1#post1494809

Beyond the pricing, what RED has accomplished here in terms of advancing technology is phenomenal. Very well done. THANK YOU!

Björn Benckert
04-13-2015, 03:43 AM
Bjorn its popping up now - keeping an eye on it.

I still can't decide between Mag and CF, really want to know exactly what I am paying for with the extra cash, the option to go to 8K, CF body, and a difference in LUTs, but will it affect frame rates etc.?

To my experience picking the "top dog" is usually comming with the least amount of regrets. :)


Question to red: why is it a mount on the picture: http://eu.red.com/store/products/weapon-woven-cf-brain-deposit

I guess it´s not inlcuded as it´s not on the included list, still a bit missleading as the upgrade has picture without mount.

Brent Carter
04-13-2015, 03:46 AM
Not sure if this has been answered already.
But if we've purchased the extended armoury for dragon will this also be passed on to the weapon when its upgraded?
Also after the upgrade M and X will no longer apply right, and serial numbers will be the same or changed.
Just curious.
Thanks,
Z


If If you have not tapped into your extended warranty, it will transfer to your upgraded WEAPON.

Jordan Buck
04-13-2015, 03:47 AM
haha Bjorn my wife to be is going to hate you! but I feel your right... haha

Björn Benckert
04-13-2015, 03:47 AM
I hope I did the right thing now... I just bougth the Carbon CF straight of... in other words I have a M serial number left over from our Dragon that got stolen, don't know what to do with that. If i find a low cost dragon I might be able to use it some how.

Can I sell my serial number? It´s worth atleast 2k USD for somebody with a dragon X going to weapon...

Jarred Land
04-13-2015, 03:47 AM
To my experience picking the "top dog" is usually comming with the least amount of regrets. :)


Question to red: why is it a mount on the picture: http://eu.red.com/store/products/weapon-woven-cf-brain-deposit

I guess it´s not inlcuded as it´s not on the included list, still a bit missleading as the upgrade has picture without mount.

Weapon Carbon Fiber upgrade includes the Mount, the Weapon Magnesium does not.

Mark van Coller
04-13-2015, 03:50 AM
So no increase in FPS at lower resolution then. 50% Higher data rates i guess means lower compression though.
Any sign of a side handle accessory.

Jordan Buck
04-13-2015, 03:51 AM
I hope I did the right thing now... I just bougth the Carbon CF straight of... in other words I have a M serial number left over from our Dragon that got stolen, don't know what to do with that. If i find a low cost dragon I might be able to use it some how.

Can I sell my serial number? It´s worth atleast 2k USD for somebody with a dragon X going to weapon...

How did you manage it? Mine keeps saying cart empty once I go through with the CF upgrade... hmm

Björn Benckert
04-13-2015, 03:54 AM
So is there a time of order list thread...

13 april 2015 12:40:55 CEST Syndicate Dragon CF Brain (no upgrade) with Vista upgrade.

Björn Benckert
04-13-2015, 03:56 AM
Weapon Carbon Fiber upgrade includes the Mount, the Weapon Magnesium does not.

Then I have a PL mount for sale I guess. :)

Nick Morrison
04-13-2015, 03:59 AM
So no increase in FPS at lower resolution then. 50% Higher data rates i guess means lower compression though.
Any sign of a side handle accessory.

Did you find the specs? Are they posted?

Joel Arvidsson
04-13-2015, 04:02 AM
Just curios how you would connect a red brick? will it be any v-mounted options for weapon?

Mark van Coller
04-13-2015, 04:26 AM
Did you find the specs? Are they posted?
No but I am guessing it would have been stated if there was a boost in FPS. All of my wish list items did not come through.
More FPS, better low light performance , better power consumption

jacob.schwarz
04-13-2015, 04:32 AM
Should i go to sleep or are you going to share the rest of the Spec tonight? really hope to see a side handle option!

Nick Morrison
04-13-2015, 04:35 AM
No but I am guessing it would have been stated if there was a boost in FPS. All of my wish list items did not come through.
More FPS, better low light performance , better power consumption

Better lowlight is menionted on red.com.

Jordan Buck
04-13-2015, 04:36 AM
Cant seem to add stealth to the cart, only normal, is this a glitch? sorry to keep posting with problems - just trying to get my order in

Gunleik Groven
04-13-2015, 04:39 AM
So the sensor on this mother has the same size/pixelcount as the current Dragon, right?

Great stuff!

Antony Newman
04-13-2015, 05:20 AM
I was struggling a bit to work out if Magnesium or CF was lighter?

I've guessed that CF is the new top dog ... hope I've guessed correctly.

Looking forward to details on low light tweaks.

AJ

Filip Orlandic
04-13-2015, 05:21 AM
Better lowlight is menionted on red.com.

The redesigned BRAIN infrastructure enabled our engineers to make a number of enhancements like automatic black shade calibrations, improved low light sensor performance, and implement a new intelligent OLPF system.

http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon?utm_source=red.com&utm_medium=homepage_slide&utm_campaign=WEAPON_Launch_NAB_2015

Brian Pascale
04-13-2015, 05:35 AM
The $5000 WEAPON accessory credit is only during NAB for new camera orders. The $5000 Weapon accessory credit extends past NAB for Dragon to Weapon upgrades.

That helps a lot. Don't think I can come up with $5,000 in the next few days but might be able to swing it later.

Peter Majtan
04-13-2015, 06:16 AM
Records R3D and scaled version of same footage as ProRes. For example 6K master, and 2K ProRes up to 120fps.

From red.com Weapon's overview:

"The 19 megapixel RED DRAGON sensor can capture 6K motion and stills at up to 100 frames per second."

That can't be right...

:sifone: Peter

Stefan Hegenberg
04-13-2015, 06:33 AM
Sry but i´m a little bit confused about the prices. Can anybody help me?

I have an EPIC DRAGON M. When i want to upgrade to WEAPON CF 8k option+ accessories my DRAGON has a value of 22.500€ incl accessory, right? I have to pay a deposit of 10.000$ now. If i´m right i payed "now" 32.500$. The final price is 67.500$. So when the camera is available i have to pay the residual of 35.000$?

Nathan L Collett
04-13-2015, 07:33 AM
Weapon Carbon Fiber upgrade includes the Mount, the Weapon Magnesium does not.

Thanks for the clarification. Do you still need to send in your mount if you go for the Mg version? Thanks

Daniel Kelly Brown
04-13-2015, 07:34 AM
The REVOLUTION is alive!!! Fuck YEAH!!!

Don't you mean REDVOLUTION :)

Bravo Red, such a truly badass looking camera, such amazing features. Fingers crossed for 300fps at 4k and you have pretty much knocked out my entire wish list.

Looks like from the weapon redvolt xl video that much faster boot times can be added to the list of specks.

Nathan L Collett
04-13-2015, 07:56 AM
The $5000 WEAPON accessory credit is only during NAB for new camera orders. The $5000 Weapon accessory credit extends past NAB for Dragon to Weapon upgrades.


Okay great ! how long after NAB will it last? Is there any benefit to placing a deposit now if you are dragon to weapon?

FrankMcPartland
04-13-2015, 08:24 AM
Is there an EF lens mount option for CF Weapon?

Would my existing EF mount work?

Will the EF mount still be viable when CF Weapon goes 8K,?


Forgive me if this is been answered already.....

Randall Brown
04-13-2015, 08:58 AM
On the base Weapon Brain, no modules, is there an audio in of any type?

Zakaree Sandberg
04-13-2015, 08:59 AM
the Res war continues

Timur Civan
04-13-2015, 09:00 AM
Cool!

Charles Bergquist
04-13-2015, 09:50 AM
ISO / Framerates / Compression tables? Anyone know where to find this info on the Weapon?

Nick Morrison
04-13-2015, 10:47 AM
Curious to know specs too.

Also - would it be safe to assume gate flare has been addressed? Im assuming so if Weapon is designed to shoot at 8k! (and gate flare was typically happening at 6K Dragon, but not 5K).

Patrick Tresch
04-13-2015, 10:50 AM
Curious to know specs too.

Also - would it be safe to assume gate flare has been addressed? Im assuming so if Weapon is designed to shoot at 8k! (and gate flare was typically happening at 6K Dragon, but not 5K).

The weapon 6k has a smaller window than the VV 8k. So it could still happen... But finger crossed.

Pat

Christopher*Seguine
04-13-2015, 11:13 AM
Is 80fps still max frame rate for 6k FF?
What is the new lowest compression ratio of 6k FF/ 80fps ?

Does weapon have longer battery run time ? Will power save mode actually do anything now?

Is Boot up time decreased?

How much quieter are the fans?
Do fans still go into turbo mode when booting up? (frightening away any nearby wildlife) ?

What is the weight difference - Epic-M dragon vs Weapon vs Weapon-CF ?
What are the dimension of the Weapon body?
Sounding like Weapon + base expander + XL or Vmount module is not going to be any smaller than epic dragon with a battery plate?

No 4k output? Hdmi output is not HDMI 2.0? HD-SDI output is still old 1.5g?

No Timecode In/Out with the base expander?

New PL mount still has no LDS data support?

how does auto black shade work? Black shade once and it interpolates for different temperatures or does cooling system now better maintain constant temperature?

new intelligent olpf with cam-action lock? are current olpfs upgraded to the new style included with body upgrade purchase?

integrated wireless control - so wifi is built into the body ?

No new SideHandle?
No new cable free EVF?

Can understand pushing people towards redvolts with including the module as part of the upgrade, but have you upgraded the battery chemistry of the redvolts at all? Sorry but they are just not acceptable, redvolts down to 75% runtime in 6 months of normal usage, redvolt-xl 80% runtime in 6 months of normal usage. Compared to cheapo Chinese vmounts 96% runtime in 2 years normal usage. if the idea is to stay small and lightweight, loosing 20-25% capacity is not usable - buying new ones every 6 months is not so great for the environment or the bank account.

Is upgrade and 8k deposit refundable?

Thommes Ulfeng
04-13-2015, 11:19 AM
Jarred wrote: Records R3D and scaled version of same footage as ProRes. For example 6K master, and 2K ProRes up to 120fps.

What would say 4,5k or 5k be able to do in fps?

Zeb B
04-13-2015, 11:29 AM
Specs are up

http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon#tech-specs

Not seeing Frame Rate v Compression Ratio

Mark van Coller
04-13-2015, 11:29 AM
http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon#tech-specs
HaHa Zeb beat me to it
Comparing Epic Dragon vs CF Waepon looks like exactly the same FPS

Scott C
04-13-2015, 11:35 AM
Specs are up

http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon#tech-specs

Not seeing Frame Rate v Compression Ratio

Looks like no 4K HDMI out?

Mike P.
04-13-2015, 11:43 AM
I'm not seeing weight?

Mark van Coller
04-13-2015, 11:49 AM
Looks like no 4K HDMI out?
Yes also 3G sdi a little disappointing with a state of the art camera.

Jon Carr
04-13-2015, 12:00 PM
Ordered or at least I think I did

anyone know the weight of body?

jacob.schwarz
04-13-2015, 12:03 PM
No high speed :-(

Subhadip Sen
04-13-2015, 12:27 PM
http://www.red.com/products/weapon-dragon#tech-specs
HaHa Zeb beat me to it
Comparing Epic Dragon vs CF Waepon looks like exactly the same FPS

Interesting. I guess the sensor is the bottleneck here.

Rob Anderson
04-13-2015, 12:28 PM
Looks like no 4K HDMI out?
Dammit.

Russ Fill
04-13-2015, 12:31 PM
Dammit.
http://www.red.com/store/products/weapon-base-expander
or is this not 4K out of the HDMI On the Base Expander

Zeb B
04-13-2015, 12:33 PM
http://www.red.com/store/products/weapon-base-expander
or is this not 4K out of the HDMI On the Base Expander

If it was 4K out then it would have a label stating "4K HDMI" printed on it ;-)

Brent Carter
04-13-2015, 12:35 PM
Tough to compare EPIC weights apples to apples since WEAPON CF has integrated top plate.

A WEAPON CF with the brain, media bay, top plate, Sidekick, and base expander, under 4 lb....

Gunleik Groven
04-13-2015, 12:54 PM
I'll ask... :)

The mounts are the same on Weapon 6k and current Dragon.
So: If we opt to, the mount does not have to be re-bought, right? Even if going magnesium.

That said, for current Dragon-M and CF owners, Weapon CF is the logical update...

Christopher*Seguine
04-13-2015, 02:02 PM
If the upgrades take way longer than expected or for whatever reason you decide not to continue with the upgrade, does this mean that once an upgrade order is placed you can not sell your dragon?

6. You may not trade, sell, convey or otherwise transfer ownership of your DRAGON BRAIN to any third party. You may not trade, sell convey or otherwise transfer ownership of your WEAPON BRAIN for a period of ninety (90) days after delivery of the WEAPON BRAIN. These limitations must be strictly observed. If you fail to abide by these terms, RED may charge you the full price of the WEAPON BRAIN without credit for your DRAGON BRAIN, minus $1. You agree that this paragraph is reasonable and agree to abide by it. You also agree to pay all costs related to enforcement of this term, including attorney’s fees, court costs, and collection costs.

Thanavorakit K.
04-13-2015, 05:02 PM
Sry but i´m a little bit confused about the prices. Can anybody help me?

I have an EPIC DRAGON M. When i want to upgrade to WEAPON CF 8k option+ accessories my DRAGON has a value of 22.500€ incl accessory, right? I have to pay a deposit of 10.000$ now. If i´m right i payed "now" 32.500$. The final price is 67.500$. So when the camera is available i have to pay the residual of 35.000$?
Here's the reply from my BS:


The $5,000 price and $10,000 price are just deposits. The WEAPON Woven CF Upgrade is $49,500 total. You will receive a $17,500 credit off the upgrade when trading in your EPIC-M DRAGON. So after paying a $5,000 deposit and receiving a $17,500 credit the total upgrade will be $27,000.

If you decide to do the 8k sensor that will be a $10,000 deposit, but at this time we currently do not know how much the sensor upgrade will be.

Zeb B
04-13-2015, 05:07 PM
If the upgrades take way longer than expected or for whatever reason you decide not to continue with the upgrade, does this mean that once an upgrade order is placed you can not sell your dragon?

6. You may not trade, sell, convey or otherwise transfer ownership of your DRAGON BRAIN to any third party. You may not trade, sell convey or otherwise transfer ownership of your WEAPON BRAIN for a period of ninety (90) days after delivery of the WEAPON BRAIN. These limitations must be strictly observed. If you fail to abide by these terms, RED may charge you the full price of the WEAPON BRAIN without credit for your DRAGON BRAIN, minus $1. You agree that this paragraph is reasonable and agree to abide by it. You also agree to pay all costs related to enforcement of this term, including attorney’s fees, court costs, and collection costs.

Dang son! That kinda limits the fair use of my private property and is a bit heavy

Daniel Reed
04-13-2015, 05:12 PM
Dragon Monochrome Upgrade path?

oh man, I just thought about that. 8K monochrome would look magical.

sergio arguello
04-13-2015, 08:32 PM
It means you pay $10K now to go from 6K to 8K when available. After this week, that price will be a lot more...

So, yes, you are only paying $10K for the upgrade to 8K form 6K, all in.

So all in 10k to go from 6k to 8k ? but what about the weapon part of it?

Marc Fisher
04-13-2015, 08:40 PM
No doubt this has already been flagged - but upgraders to the CF weapon (versus new buyers) get an extra 3,645 of accessories in the upgrade package. Now whether these are needed by each upgrader is another story - but they are another sweetner that hasn't been well publicised imo

Peter Lyons Collister, ASC
04-13-2015, 08:42 PM
I'll ask... :)

The mounts are the same on Weapon 6k and current Dragon.
So: If we opt to, the mount does not have to be re-bought, right? Even if going magnesium.

That said, for current Dragon-M and CF owners, Weapon CF is the logical update...

I am also curious about Ti PL mount credit

PatrickFaith
04-13-2015, 08:44 PM
Could someone explain the redcode ratio change based on the performance improvement to ssd with the weapon carbon. I currently do a lot of reframing on 6k, and it would be great if I could do 6k FF at 3:1 (and even when the 8k comes out i think i'd like to do that at 24p 4:1).

vincent kardasik
04-14-2015, 01:14 AM
I'm thinking about this since the announcement and I can't find the answer anywhere... There was a lot of new posts these past 48 hours to say the least.
This is crucial regarding my future upgrade path and I'd really appreciate if Jarred or Brent could chime in and answer my questions below.
I understand there's a better chip in the Weapon CF so it will allow more options but if I we compare 6K footage from a Weapon Magnesium and from a Weapon CF, will the footage from the latest look better thanks to the extra processing or will it look the same?

Jarred Land
04-14-2015, 01:21 AM
I'm thinking about this since the announcement and I can't find the answer anywhere... There was a lot of new posts these past 48 hours to say the least.
This is crucial regarding my future upgrade path and I'd really appreciate if Jarred or Brent could chime in and answer my questions below.
I understand there's a better chip in the Weapon CF so it will allow more options but if I we compare 6K footage from a Weapon Magnesium and from a Weapon CF, will the footage from the latest look better thanks to the extra processing or will it look the same?

Good question Vincent. If you use the same REDCODE settings, they will look the same. Kind of like Epic and Scarlet at the same settings, look the same.

vincent kardasik
04-14-2015, 01:24 AM
Good question Vincent. If you use the same REDCODE settings, they will look the same. Kind of like Epic and Scarlet at the same settings, look the same.

Many thanks for your reply Jarred.
Thanks to the extra processing will Weapon CF allow better REDCODE setting than Weapon Magnesium at the same framerate?

Jarred Land
04-14-2015, 01:38 AM
Many thanks for your reply Jarred.
Thanks to the extra processing will Weapon CF allow better REDCODE setting than Weapon Magnesium at the same framerate?

That is what we still are testing still . but that is the idea yes.

vincent kardasik
04-14-2015, 01:46 AM
That is what we still are testing still . but that is the idea yes.

Thanks a lot for your reply Jarred.

Kemalettin Sert
04-14-2015, 01:56 AM
Jarred this means im going to upgrade weapon with 5000$ credit plus 15.500$ worth dragon tradein against 34.500 $ Weapon.
4500$ worth Modules in Weapon pack
5000$ accessories credit
15.500$ Dragon
Still same price with Dragon upgrades.gonna cost 9.5K total.you guys are awesome at best

Stefan Hegenberg
04-14-2015, 01:58 AM
I can´t see a good option to handle this body straight out of my hands. I love to go very small like on the picture, but it seems that i now have to use a shoulder rig? :(
http://fs1.directupload.net/images/150414/lf8lwn9h.png

Adam Howden
04-14-2015, 02:10 AM
Will it be possible to record pro res at higher than 2k? Or is that the resolution limit?

Shane Peel
04-14-2015, 05:21 AM
This "Forged" Carbon is a more complex and expensive system of producing a composite right? The same tech that is in golf clubs and Lambo's? Any info on the structural strength V the traditional weave CF in Epoxy that was being used before. Looks like a 50's pearl steering wheel kinda trick … love it.

Sven Seynaeve
04-14-2015, 06:25 AM
just don't understand why no UHD prores to compete with the competitors all the way.

Gunleik Groven
04-14-2015, 07:04 AM
just don't understand why no UHD prores to compete with the competitors all the way.

I'd guess the answer is simple: Bandwith.

Björn Benckert
04-14-2015, 07:34 AM
I am also curious about Ti PL mount credit

My guess there will be quite a few Magnesium and ti PL mounts for sale here when these camera start to ship. I'm personally very happy with our Ti mount but I can only buy the CF weapon as a bundle with Mag PL mount so most likely I will sell it as soon as it ships.

Christopher*Seguine
04-14-2015, 09:06 AM
From previous posts it sounded like the reason for dropping the 1.8 redmags was their sata 3g bandwidth limiting redcode to max of 180MBs, which kinda implied the path to the redmag module on epic/dragon was limited to 3g.

On weapon you probably moved to 6G sata the minimags support, and both MG and CF bodes say "50% higher data rates to card" - We have no use for prores, if all I care about is less compression at 6k FF 80fps, is there a difference between MG and CF bodies?


That is what we still are testing still . but that is the idea yes.

Matthew J
04-14-2015, 09:19 AM
I'd guess the answer is simple: Bandwith.

I would understand that if you were recording 6k RAW and 4k ProRes at 60fps simultaneously, but there's not enough horsepower in Weapon to record 6k and 4k 23.98 at the same time? Heck, what about just a single ProRes 4k 23.98 stream by itself. I can't believe that a $3k BM4k camera has more power to do that then a Weapon. So I really want to know RED's logic in not doing 4k ProRes. Honestly, this is a HUGE let down for me and makes me start double guessing if I can steal back some of the business in my market that's gone to the Alexa. With 4k ProRes I think I can, at 2k, I think many people may just stick with the Alexa.

FrankMcPartland
04-14-2015, 09:22 AM
Hello: May I please request an Magnesium EF Mount Option for CF Weapon that is "ready for 8K" --- I have no PL glass...

I do realize I can use my existing Red EF Mount, but it does not have the larger port size for 8K...

Thank you





Did you order the 8k upgrade as well? the 8k PL mount has a bigger port hole in it :)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/redfox/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Peter Lyons Collister, ASC http://www.reduser.net/forum/images/redfox/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1495994#post1495994)
I am also curious about Ti PL mount credit



My guess there will be quite a few Magnesium and ti PL mounts for sale here when these camera start to ship. I'm personally very happy with our Ti mount but I can only buy the CF weapon as a bundle with Mag PL mount so most likely I will sell it as soon as it ships.

Phil Holland
04-14-2015, 09:22 AM
just don't understand why no UHD prores to compete with the competitors all the way.

Don't panic just yet.

I'm 100% with Jim in regards to his feelings about ProRes not being a totally proper capture codec. REDCODE RAW is more capable really.

However, the industry "happened" and ProRes has become a capture and delivery standard through various workflows. Run and gun, ENG, small doc, smaller budget anything, straight to broadcast, etc....

Based on the feedback I've been getting on the floor and in my phone I hope RED enables:

- REDCODE RAW only recording.
- REDCODE RAW + Simultaneous ProRes scaled recording for 2K and if possible 4K.
- ProRes Only recording at maximum resolution with the option for scaled output. Meaning in camera 6K to 4K downsampling for example We know it can do that already.

For years I've wanted quality compressed raw and we've got that. But some projects seem to demand exclusive ProRes output. Especially for productions that need a quick to display embedded 3D LUT ProRes deliverable.

This is one thing I think RED will listen to and enable. But I'm still with Jim on the sentiment regarding ProRes as the "master format". I've never dug that, but TV needed to get fast and cheap.

David Litchfield
04-14-2015, 04:17 PM
Don't panic just yet.

I'm 100% with Jim in regards to his feelings about ProRes not being a totally proper capture codec. REDCODE RAW is more capable really.

However, the industry "happened" and ProRes has become a capture and delivery standard through various workflows. Run and gun, ENG, small doc, smaller budget anything, straight to broadcast, etc....

Based on the feedback I've been getting on the floor and in my phone I hope RED enables:

- REDCODE RAW only recording.
- REDCODE RAW + Simultaneous ProRes scaled recording for 2K and if possible 4K.
- ProRes Only recording at maximum resolution with the option for scaled output. Meaning in camera 6K to 4K downsampling for example We know it can do that already.

For years I've wanted quality compressed raw and we've got that. But some projects seem to demand exclusive ProRes output. Especially for productions that need a quick to display embedded 3D LUT ProRes deliverable.

This is one thing I think RED will listen to and enable. But I'm still with Jim on the sentiment regarding ProRes as the "master format". I've never dug that, but TV needed to get fast and cheap.


Obviously Prores is not as good as Red Raw. But if the camera is capable of Prores at 4K then Red should let users decide and not dictate it to us.

It seems as though a lot of owner operators feel like they are being priced out of upgrading. Not surprising considering they’ve already paid for the sensor and are now faced with another $20k or so to get 2k prores and the most basic of connectors in the correct position. That’s it, right?

Julien Deka
04-14-2015, 10:46 PM
I'm confused about something. On the store, the WEAPON WOVEN CF UPGRADE PACKAGE DEPOSIT and the WEAPON WOVEN CF BRAIN DEPOSIT are listing the same final price of $49,500.

The package has obviously more accessories. What am I missing?

Also, I would love to see a WEAPON MAGNESIUM UPGRADE BRAIN ONLY, just to see how it would affect pricing. What I like about the modular approach is that you can buy up your accessories over time but yet still shoot some stuff until you can afford them.

Or like to choose to use the $5000 credits toward mini-SSD Mags, rather than, let's say, top handle and sidekick... Am I making sense?

Phil Holland
04-14-2015, 10:57 PM
Don't panic just yet.

I'm 100% with Jim in regards to his feelings about ProRes not being a totally proper capture codec. REDCODE RAW is more capable really.

However, the industry "happened" and ProRes has become a capture and delivery standard through various workflows. Run and gun, ENG, small doc, smaller budget anything, straight to broadcast, etc....

Based on the feedback I've been getting on the floor and in my phone I hope RED enables:

- REDCODE RAW only recording.
- REDCODE RAW + Simultaneous ProRes scaled recording for 2K and if possible 4K.
- ProRes Only recording at maximum resolution with the option for scaled output. Meaning in camera 6K to 4K downsampling for example We know it can do that already.

For years I've wanted quality compressed raw and we've got that. But some projects seem to demand exclusive ProRes output. Especially for productions that need a quick to display embedded 3D LUT ProRes deliverable.

This is one thing I think RED will listen to and enable. But I'm still with Jim on the sentiment regarding ProRes as the "master format". I've never dug that, but TV needed to get fast and cheap.


Obviously Prores is not as good as Red Raw. But if the camera is capable of Prores at 4K then Red should let users decide and not dictate it to us.

It seems as though a lot of owner operators feel like they are being priced out of upgrading. Not surprising considering they’ve already paid for the sensor and are now faced with another $20k or so to get 2k prores and the most basic of connectors in the correct position. That’s it, right?


Just to expand on this after day 2 at NAB 2015, it's still the thing I hear asked about the most and desired.

Jim is right and I believe strongly in REDCODE RAW. The problem is the industry itself and specific types of shooters and deliveries. Shortly and even know we are seeing a shoot to upload mentality with certain things.

From a business perspective having ProRes 4K possible in camera and even 4K+ ProRes would basically be waving a big "finger" to the competing cameras that allow this workflow. We're still in the early days and I hope this is examined closely as a feature request.

The funny thing is that I have no interest in it for most of my work. I shoot REDCODE RAW and love it.

And to the second point, it's not just about ProRes David. 3D LUTs, processing power, data speed increases, smaller form factor, technology advancements, etc. are more of the story. There's a lot going on actually in this brain redesign.

And if you all recall how things played out over the years with each new camera firmware update, I have a feeling we are just getting started with Weapon.

Jarred Land
04-14-2015, 11:33 PM
Based on the feedback I've been getting on the floor and in my phone I hope RED enables:

- REDCODE RAW only recording.
- REDCODE RAW + Simultaneous ProRes scaled recording for 2K and if possible 4K.
- ProRes Only recording at maximum resolution with the option for scaled output. Meaning in camera 6K to 4K downsampling for example We know it can do that already.

OK Phil... 2K ProRes Only recording granted.. It is dumb.. and we will shake a stick at you if we catch you doing it.. but we realize sometimes our customers don't get to make those kind of decisions... producers do. As long as you promise to shake a stick at them when they ask to throw away the good master, then we will give you that one.

4K ProRes is not an impossibility. Don't take that as a "we can do it", but it is not "impossible" on the Carbon Weapon.

Assume you are getting 2K ProRes.... make your purchase decisions based off of that.

I will get back to you on that well before it is time for you to pay to take delivery. We have some pretty damn good engineers.

David Battistella
04-14-2015, 11:47 PM
I think probably what people want to avoid is Frankenrigs. Now that Arri is recording "4k" Prores, people who work in that world will want to be on a level playing field. So they won't want to strap an external 4k capable Prores recorder to the camera if it can be had onboard.

Probably the bigtime customer base asking for this would want 6k Prores 4444hq with RLF and wb baked in and no raw recording at all.

the dragon sensor and the prores workflow.

Even though the raw is the way to go, most maybe just want to pass Prores around in post.

please don't abandon raw. It's the cornerstone.

Phil Holland
04-14-2015, 11:50 PM
OK Phil... 2K ProRes Only recording granted.. It is dumb.. and we will shake a stick at you if we catch you doing it.. but we realize sometimes our customers don't get to make those kind of decisions... producers do. As long as you promise to shake a stick at them when they ask to throw away the good master, then we will give you that one.

4K ProRes is not an impossibility. Don't take that as a "we can do it", but it is not "impossible" on the Carbon Weapon.

Assume you are getting 2K ProRes.... make your purchase decisions based off of that.

I will get back to you on that well before it is time for you to pay to take delivery. We have some pretty damn good engineers.


That should help a good chunk of people making that particular decision. And if you get that done, well high fives all around!

You won't catch me doing it. 2K outside of getting files to clients and editors is a bad word for me :) REDCODE RAW is my whip. My creative life and world are all about 4K, 4K+, and 8K at this point.

Weapon will reveal itself in being the production camera that productions have been looking for. I see that and feel that.

jacob.schwarz
04-14-2015, 11:54 PM
You could always upres the 2k to 4k like *cough* some companies do and have a "4K Prores camera".

Nick Morrison
04-14-2015, 11:55 PM
You could always upres the 2k to 4k like *cough* some companies do and have a "4K Prores camera".

Haha. You made me laugh out load. The irony there...gotta love it.

Jarred Land
04-14-2015, 11:56 PM
I think probably what people want to avoid is Frankenrigs.  Now that Arri is recording 4k Prores, people will want to be on a level playing field. So they won't want to strap an external 4k capable Prores recorder to the camera if it can be had onboard.

Probably the bigtime customer base asking for this would want 6k Prores 4444hq with RLF and wb baked in and no raw recording at all.

the dragon sensor and the prores workflow.

Even though the raw is the way to go, most maybe just want to pass Prores around in post.

please don't abandon raw. It's the cornerstone.

REDCODE RAW is the right choice. The smart guys know that.

Gunleik Groven
04-14-2015, 11:59 PM
REDCODE RAW is the right choice. The smart guys know that.

100% right
But i have no issues in seeing that an onboard prores-recorder + 3D LUTs is a huge time-saver for larger workflows with several people working shifts on the edits.

It will all mostly end up in redcode RAW or a trancode to ACES EXR, but the way there can be done easier and better for many with prores directly on the cam.

THANKS!

David Battistella
04-15-2015, 12:01 AM
REDCODE RAW is the right choice. The smart guys know that.


It's really the only choice for me. :)

David Battistella
04-15-2015, 12:04 AM
Crazy.

As I am typing this I am creating 4K masters from 6K Raw on my desktop computer. I could not really have dreamt of this when I had a DVX100 in my hands not that long ago, like less than a decade! What is 6K, like, 42 times the size of a DV frame?

hahahahahahahha

Jeff Brown
04-15-2015, 12:16 AM
Speaking as rental house with 10 Dragons and who knows the benefit of Raw the lack of 4K Prores will be less important than the frame rates.

Customer: I hear you have the new Red and it does Prores now?
Me: Correct
Customer: What's the maximum frame rate?
Me:120fps
Customer: what does the Amira do?
Me: 200fps
Customer: OK can I pencil an Amira please?

Probably 80-90% of all shoots in the UK (excluding Films)shoot either 1080/2k Prores on Alexa/Amira.
I'm really hoping this time round that can be changed.

Nick Morrison
04-15-2015, 12:18 AM
Speaking as rental house with 10 Dragons and who knows the benefit of Raw the lack of 4K Prores will be less important than the frame rates.

Customer: I hear you have the new Red and it does Prores now?
Me: Correct
Customer: What's the maximum frame rate?
Me:120fps
Customer: what does the Amira do?
Me: 200fps
Customer: OK can I pencil an Amira please?

Probably 80-90% of all shoots in the UK (excluding Films)shoot either 1080/2k Prores on Alexa/Amira.
I'm really hoping this time round that can be changed.

Even if they could do 300fps at 2K in RAW?

Giles Harvey
04-15-2015, 12:27 AM
That should help a good chunk of people making that particular decision. And if you get that done, well high fives all around!

You won't catch me doing it. 2K outside of getting files to clients and editors is a bad word for me :) REDCODE RAW is my whip. My creative life and world are all about 4K, 4K+, and 8K at this point.

Weapon will reveal itself in being the production camera that productions have been looking for. I see that and feel that.

quick question Phil, would you say that the 2k pro-res is created from sensor crop or down res from the 6K. I would be concerned with the quality of sensor cropped

Phil Holland
04-15-2015, 12:39 AM
quick question Phil, would you say that the 2k pro-res is created from sensor crop or down res from the 6K. I would be concerned with the quality of sensor cropped

It is a scaled version of the format you are shooting in. 6K to 2K, 5K to 2K, etc....

If all goes well and if the RED engineers can make it work here's how I'd love to see it happen in camera.

- REDCODE RAW recording
- REDCODE RAW + Simultaneous 2K ProRes Recording
- ProRes 2K through 4K recording

So essentially a format page that allows you to select which formats you are recording.

On the ProRes Setup Menu there should be an option to choose which resolution based on your capture format you want to go. 4K, 2K, etc. Also there should be a menu likely on that page with tick boxes to allow for the Look and/or LUT to be baked into that ProRes file. Meaning you can monitor with say a 3D LUT on REDlogFilm and have the ProRes file not incorporate that and just be REDlogFilm and you can manipulate that after the fact or simply bake that in for quick shooting needs.

We'll see what RED can do in if, how, and when they can add these features. But right now we know it can do the Simultaneous .R3D and .MOV in 2K which is bad ass for dailies and all that.

It's a huge big step here really either way. One that saves time and money on set. Those dailies/proxies being generated and going right over to editorial, your DIT, or Data Manager is going to please many people.

Giles Harvey
04-15-2015, 12:49 AM
2k prores is great for starters. I can then encourage the online offline approach. But it also means that the smaller jobs that don't require 4k I'm covered. It actually means I don't have have to buy a separate camera for that work. Totally agree on LUT's baked or not. So in short I'll be happy with spec as is but 4k pro-res will simply put it on a level. Jeff Brown makes a valid point on frame rate though. Is it possible to get get 200fps plus in pro-res ?

ignition
04-15-2015, 05:52 AM
Valid points on all sides of the argument. But the overarching argument seems to hinge on the nirvana of one camera perfect for everything. We're not quite there yet as far as I'm aware. But in general, isn't the "everyday" hypothesis for DOP's:
Acquisition (sensor) quality, Workflow productivity, Resolution ...?

So we start with what the sensor delivers in image quality. We look at the workflow productivity (in Weapon's case, adding ProRes workstreams out of the box), and then consider what resolutions (native) can provide us in content delivery options outside of the Workflow productivity.

2K ProRes seems to address an immediate workflow concern, a wide range of content delivery options - and then there's the R3D backstop for 4K+ delivery off the same backbone.

So now we turn to the "frame rate" argument. Where that's a mitigating factor in circumstances where the end (viewer) material is critically dependent on it; again, we're talking a workflow input as the output will be irrelevant of the frame rate (but 'resolution' will still play a part in it, depending on if it's online, HD broadcast, cinematic 4K DCI or even IMax etc.). Artistically, documentary-wise, or story-telling wise, frame-rate is an important element of 'input' into the content generation process. So...

In such cases, does the priority then become:
Acquisition (sensor) quality, Framerate, Workflow productivity, resolution ... ?

So now we're seeking a great sensor (RED, Alexa, both great)... a high native frame rate (again, both great).. and we're stuck on the workflow productivity issue around this 120 vs 200 fps ProRes argument. The next most important thing is resolution. If you're mastering for HD 1080p or online I think the issue of ProRes workflow input framerates becomes obvious. 200fps is better than 120fps, if that really matters.

However - if resolution flexibility after the workflow flexibility is important.. the concept of delivering +2K experiences. 4K DCI or UHD for example. You now have a very real argument on your hands over native output resolution versus workflow flexibility.

I've seen a few posts around how 4K (UHD) is 'years away' from establishing a foothold like 1080p. I find it hard to believe those people haven't walked into any local retailer carrying TVs and seen <$1k UHD tv's are now the norm. Adoption rates are hinged on content producers. So therein lies our challenge.

I say this with the caveat I'm a content strategist, writer and director. Not a DOP. So admittedly I hold no weight nor authority on the image acquisition game. I'm just thinking about audience and outcomes. Most of them, rather brutally, don't care what it was shot on, what resolution, what lenses, what workflow or what format. They just seem to care about the experience in their chosen viewing medium. iPad, desktop, HDTV, UHD TV, cinema or iMax.

So to me the issue of framerate as an input - whether native or flexibly as part of a workflow productivity issue - is moot unless you couple it with the intended output format, as dictated by your intended audience.

And if everything said herein is moot; then why the hell am I +$100k in debt on amazing acquisition gear, where BMC <$10k equipment is perfectly fine for online and HDTV 1080p audiences..?

ignition
04-15-2015, 06:21 AM
So new CF upgrade package includes integrated media bay (Mini Mag).

http://www.red.com/store/products/weapon-woven-cf-upgrade-package-deposit

To what extent, if any, do existing Dragon owners already on the MiniMag Side Module benefit from the upgrade vs. those on legacy 1.8" SSD side module?

Or did we just blow some extra cash moving to the MiniMag module preemptively.. ??? Most pre-NAB2015 comms suggested having adopted MiniMag media would reduce the pain. Understand our MiniMag media itself is now useful on Weapon CF. But our side MiniMag module is now entirely irrelevant in the upgrade process vs people upgrading from a 1.8" side SSD module at the same time? Feeling a tad short-changed if that's the case..!!

Tarquin Cardona
04-15-2015, 06:34 AM
"Feeling short changed" should become the bumper sticker:)

I think I heard that the mini-mags did offer compression improvements to the existing fabulous Dragon. So they were certainly not a waste. The side module hmnmn. I think they would need to really offer you just a brain so you could add your back on - if that even works???

ignition
04-15-2015, 06:37 AM
"Feeling short changed" should become the bumper sticker:)

I think I heard that the mini-mags did offer compression improvements to the existing fabulous Dragon. So they were certainly not a waste. The side module hmnmn. I think they would need to really offer you just a brain so you could add your back on - if that even works???

Short-changed is hardly applicable to RED's overall upgrade pathways to existing owners. But yeah, a little lost as to what upgrade benefits our Side MiniMag module now represent in the overall scheme of things.

jacob.schwarz
04-15-2015, 06:39 AM
Question what all do we ship back for our Upgrade? Mount? SSD Module? etc.

I have a buddy that wants to buy a Dragon Scarlet and i would love to help him get on his feet by selling some components to him for his purchase but i don't know what has to go back to Red.

David Litchfield
04-15-2015, 07:07 AM
And to the second point, it's not just about ProRes David. 3D LUTs, processing power, data speed increases, smaller form factor, technology advancements, etc. are more of the story. There's a lot going on actually in this brain redesign.

And if you all recall how things played out over the years with each new camera firmware update, I have a feeling we are just getting started with Weapon.

You can buy a 3D Lut box for under £1000. And its probably more useful given that the Weapon still only has one SDI output. Prores recorders are cheap and everywhere. More processing power? 6k frame rates are the same so its just the addition of prores. ‘Technology advancements’ sounds incredibly vague and a desperate attempt to list something significant. Half a stop better? I bet its still not ISO 2000 as clean as 800 though.

The upgrade should be half the cost of what it is. Either that or the Magnesium should have the same frame rate specs as the CF.

Nick Morrison
04-15-2015, 07:15 AM
Short-changed is hardly applicable to RED's overall upgrade pathways to existing owners. But yeah, a little lost as to what upgrade benefits our Side MiniMag module now represent in the overall scheme of things.

The benefit is you invested in a media platform (MINI MAGS) that is Weapon compatible, and not EOL. Whereas those with 1.8" mags are far behind you, both financially (they have to buy new media) and investment wise (their 1.8 mags are now sadly worth much less).

The half glass full answer is...you invested wisely.

Nick Morrison
04-15-2015, 07:24 AM
You can buy a 3D Lut box for under £1000. And its probably more useful given that the Weapon still only has one SDI output. Prores recorders are cheap and everywhere. More processing power? 6k frame rates are the same so its just the addition of prores. ‘Technology advancements’ sounds incredibly vague and a desperate attempt to list something significant. Half a stop better? I bet its still not ISO 2000 as clean as 800 though.

The upgrade should be half the cost of what it is. Either that or the Magnesium should have the same frame rate specs as the CF.

External recorders cant do slowmo.

Its not just about prores, its a slew of small improvements.

Weapon does not REPLACE Epic. Its just a luxury version of Epic. Upgrading isnt necessary - its optional. As you say, its the same same sensor/specs...just like Alexa XT shares many of same "specs" with lower tier Alexas - same sensor, different bodies. Weapon is same - its a studio/rental cam. The luxury features are expensive yes (and not necessary for many owner ops), but compared to the competion (Alexa XT, Sony F65, Panasonic)...its really not. The Alexa Mini is in same ballpark as Weapon CF, and Alexa XT is significantly more...

Phil Holland
04-15-2015, 08:52 AM
Speaking of which - weren't we supposed to get a 1.8" to mini-mag trade-in program?

Contact your Bomb Squad Rep for that info.

Alexander Christ
04-15-2015, 09:29 AM
It is a scaled version of the format you are shooting in. 6K to 2K, 5K to 2K, etc....

If all goes well and if the RED engineers can make it work here's how I'd love to see it happen in camera.

- REDCODE RAW recording
- REDCODE RAW + Simultaneous 2K ProRes Recording
- ProRes 2K through 4K recording

So essentially a format page that allows you to select which formats you are recording.

On the ProRes Setup Menu there should be an option to choose which resolution based on your capture format you want to go. 4K, 2K, etc. Also there should be a menu likely on that page with tick boxes to allow for the Look and/or LUT to be baked into that ProRes file. Meaning you can monitor with say a 3D LUT on REDlogFilm and have the ProRes file not incorporate that and just be REDlogFilm and you can manipulate that after the fact or simply bake that in for quick shooting needs.

We'll see what RED can do in if, how, and when they can add these features. But right now we know it can do the Simultaneous .R3D and .MOV in 2K which is bad ass for dailies and all that.

It's a huge big step here really either way. One that saves time and money on set. Those dailies/proxies being generated and going right over to editorial, your DIT, or Data Manager is going to please many people.

I second that! Would be smart and attract many productions to choose RED.

Donald MJ Anderson
04-15-2015, 09:39 AM
Is the talk moving to dreaming of upgrades for Weapon already?

Jarred Land
04-15-2015, 10:13 AM
Magnesium Weapon and the Carbon Weapon brains are both about 3.5 pounds with the SSD media bay, vs 4.5 pounds for the Epic Dragon with side SSD.

Jake Roper
04-15-2015, 10:28 AM
Magnesium Weapon and the Carbon Weapon brains are both about 3.5 pounds with the SSD media bay, vs 4.5 pounds for the Epic Dragon with side SSD.

And ordered. Thanks for the info!

Patrick Tresch
04-15-2015, 11:23 AM
Don't Forget, regarding data rate:

Prores422 HQ = RedcodeRaw compression 4:1

Prores HQ is not (or should not be seen as) a mastering codec.

Pat

Adam Howden
04-15-2015, 01:09 PM
Yeah I'm going to say it again, RED - JARRED, please just enable the Magnesium Weapon to be able to shoot the same specs pro res as the CF Weapon. Seriously, it's a silly choice for RED to cobble that smaller camera. You guys always bang on about putting it in the hands of the everyday man, customer etc

Give us this and you'll get a lot more upgrades. Hobble the Magnesium and force people who want pro res to pay an extra $15k and you're just going to piss your customers off. It just doesn't make sense to me and to be honest I'm really thinking
twice about this upgrade. And relatively speaking I'm a pretty busy DP in a relatively well paid market and I'll make the ROI.

Phil's comment about shooting to just pro res 4K in camera is what we all want. Don't be afraid of pro res people are still going to shoot RAW most of the time.

A. Clint Litton
04-15-2015, 01:49 PM
Yeah I'm going to say it again, RED - JARRED, please just enable the Magnesium Weapon to be able to shoot the same specs pro res as the CF Weapon. Seriously, it's a silly choice for RED to cobble that smaller camera.

Give us this and you'll get a lot more upgrades. Hobble the Magnesium and force people who want pro res to pay an extra $15k and you're just going to piss your customers off. It just doesn't make sense to me and to be honest I'm really thinking
twice about this upgrade.

Phil's comment about shooting to just pro res 4K in camera is what we all want. Don't be afraid of pro res people are still going to shoot RAW most of the time.

+1 - I think it's going to be a point of confusion for the people on the production end who need to source things (hell, even some of the people who work at rental houses and should know better regarding specs). I understand wanting to give CF owners a little more for that premium, but the fps cap on ProRes, and possibly the 8K upgrade, seems like it's just creating more issues than it's worth. The interchangeable OLPF system, while great for the owner-operator, is a small example of how it's hard for some camera folks who aren't regularly immersed in all things Red to remain mindful of how these varieties and options can impact a shoot...so imagine how much difficult and/or frustrating for a layman in a coordinator's chair.

On an aesthetic note, I think I'd also prefer the Magnesium body, but without having to take a hit on performance. I know Red may be reluctant to take a page from Arri's playbook, but this is an instance where having the same hardware built-in to all cameras of a similar line, but making certain distinctions on capabilities by way of licensed upgrades. So someone who doesn't want or need ProRes recording, or hi-speed, etc, can pay the lower price. All the rental houses will pay for the premium licenses, and there will likely be a better consistency among Weapon capabilities, whereas someone who doesn't operate in this high-end commercial world can put that money towards needs that better suit the individual. And of course, if they someday need to gain those premium capabilities in their cameras, they can go online, make a payment, and unlock it in camera without sending anything back to Red.

Mark Pugh
04-15-2015, 02:01 PM
Magnesium Weapon and the Carbon Weapon brains are both about 3.5 pounds with the SSD media bay, vs 4.5 pounds for the Epic Dragon with side SSD.

What's the weight with a redvolt or base expander? That would make it apples vs apples.

Daniel Reed
04-15-2015, 06:17 PM
Contact your Bomb Squad Rep for that info.

Phil, is that a separate program not related to Weapon? Or an extension to the Weapon Upgrade?
(and yeah, I'm in email talks w/ my rep)

Mattias Åkerlind
04-16-2015, 06:04 PM
Jarred,

any chance for a small expander module with:



10 Gbps Ethernet port that allows tethered full bandwidth (300 MB/s) streaming of RED RAW to a computer for live/realtime grading, quality control, direct recording to RAID storage.
UHD/4K RGB output for monitoring, HDMI 2.0/SDI (6G/12G)


Is the Weapon CF hardware capable of supporting this (in particular 10-Gig ethernet)? Needs to know before pressing the order button... :thumbsup:

Michael Lindsay
04-20-2015, 03:47 AM
Not sure where to post this...?

I have received many calls from other Dragon owners asking what I am going to do re 'W' upgrade... I think I know now but I am right on a tipping point. So please if anyone with better knowledge on any bellow statements or question would care to correct me please do so.

I apologise if any of the information I am asking about is easily worked out from Red.com or on RU (I have spent allot of time trying to read everything) ... ALSO please note I think these W options is a good value range of options from Red and I am not complaining just evaluating!.. so I don't want this to be a instigater for more moaning.

These upgrade options have no increase in frame rate.. does this inc the CF 8k dragon. If it had 'any' increase in frame rate at s35 chip size it make it all easier to do?

BOTH Mag and CF options have better compression ratios (wide shots at the moment in slowmo are problematic so this is a real plus! So what does that quantify as... when dragon is 10 to 1 weapon is ? to 1? Basically is seems the cameras are the same pic quality in a like for like situation... (jarred posted this I think) so what is the the real compression advantage in ratio terms?... Did anyone try this a NAB ?(6k+Max frame rate= what compresssion ratio?)

How much quieter is the camera? will sound guys stop moaning?... Can this be quantified please? Is it as quite as a alex? Is the mag body a better heat sink than the CF body?

I have no real interest in Prores BUT if Avid DNxHD becomes available that may be cool... if the Mag body caps out at 60fps what happens when we record say qt 100fps? does it just take a while to catch up? that would be fine!... if you then don't have that clip as Prores that would seem really problematic as it would be more work afterwards than just pressing transcode all with a RRX system as we do at the moment.

thank you

Michael

Phil Holland
04-20-2015, 04:22 AM
Not sure where to post this...?

I have received many calls from other Dragon owners asking what I am going to do re 'W' upgrade... I think I know now but I am right on a tipping point. So please if anyone with better knowledge on any bellow statements or question would care to correct me please do so.

I apologise if any of the information I am asking about is easily worked out from Red.com or on RU (I have spent allot of time trying to read everything) ... ALSO please note I think these W options is a good value range of options from Red and I am not complaining just evaluating!.. so I don't want this to be a instigater for more moaning.

These upgrade options have no increase in frame rate.. does this inc the CF 8k dragon. If it had 'any' increase in frame rate at s35 chip size it make it all easier to do?

BOTH Mag and CF options have better compression ratios (wide shots at the moment in slowmo are problematic so this is a real plus! So what does that quantify as... when dragon is 10 to 1 weapon is ? to 1? Basically is seems the cameras are the same pic quality in a like for like situation... (jarred posted this I think) so what is the the real compression advantage in ratio terms?... Did anyone try this a NAB ?(6k+Max frame rate= what compresssion ratio?)

How much quieter is the camera? will sound guys stop moaning?... Can this be quantified please? Is it as quite as a alex? Is the mag body a better heat sink than the CF body?

I have no real interest in Prores BUT if Avid DNxHD becomes available that may be cool... if the Mag body caps out at 60fps what happens when we record say qt 100fps? does it just take a while to catch up? that would be fine!... if you then don't have that clip as Prores that would seem really problematic as it would be more work afterwards than just pressing transcode all with a RRX system as we do at the moment.



I can answer a fair amount of these Michael.

Frame Rates - There is no frame rate increase. Weapon at the moment uses the Dragon sensor and the maximum frames per second are tied to the sensor readout and a few other things. We have no idea when RED will release another sensor, but it's likely a fair bit away (1-3 years) and we also don't know if there will be a frame rate increase when that time comes.

REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios - At the moment we don't know exactly what benefits we'll be getting when it comes to compression ratios, but CF and MG Weapon have higher data rates than Epic and the CF Weapon has a higher data rate than MG Weapon. How this translates to REDCODE RAW? We'll likely know relatively soon.

Side Note - The better processing power and bandwidth in Weapon Dragon will have a slight effect on having about a 1/2 stop cleaner shadow than Epic Dragon.

Sound - It's pretty quiet. It is impossible to measure anything like that on the NAB Show Floor, but it is quieter than Epic from what I can tell. Also, there's no front facing fan which is really good.

Heat - Totally newly designed Top Fan and Rear Ventilation. Hard to know if there's any performance difference in heat between both Weapons, but heat stability will be better than Epic. Based on what I can read between the vastly improved Black Shading range and heat management it sounds like it might be quicker to be up and shooting from a "cold" camera than before.

ProRes/DNxHD/HR - At the moment we see "2K ProRes at up to 60fps or 120fps" depending on if you are using the MG or CF. I suspect if you are using MG and trying to record beyond 60fps it will simply not create the ProRes or give you some sort of warning, but it's honestly too early to tell. Real time encoding beyond 2K 60fps is the territory of the more powerful Carbon Fiber Weapon. There are real feature differences between the two models and this is one of them. As for future codecs to be supported we know nothing yet, but we're still in the early days of Weapon.

Tarquin Cardona
04-20-2015, 05:08 AM
Thanks for an extremely honest overview Phil. I think it is tricky for current Epic Dragon owners expressly because the performance enhancements in IQ are slim, and the codec Pro Res is adequate but not stellar. So in short, one is spending 20-40k at least for body change and some modest performance increase but this will not give one the immediate gratification of a greatly improved cam. And the 8k is great but for many good 4k is the goal for now. So tricky time for all in the decisions. I think these new cams are great for the new breed of first time buyer. But perhaps for current Epic Dragon owners another year or two of using what you have gives better ROI, and Red has stated the trade in values will be there for a good while yet so your current camera is not dead. IQ wise pretty it's much the same as the next gen.

Michael Lindsay
04-20-2015, 05:46 AM
Thanks Phil...

one other question:

I run the ViewFinder to the front along a nato rail with a spinner... just in front of the MB. I am worried the lemo adapter thing will not allow this... can you see any problem there?

thanks

Michael

Jeremy Torrie
04-20-2015, 05:58 AM
+1 - I think it's going to be a point of confusion for the people on the production end who need to source things (hell, even some of the people who work at rental houses and should know better regarding specs). I understand wanting to give CF owners a little more for that premium, but the fps cap on ProRes, and possibly the 8K upgrade, seems like it's just creating more issues than it's worth. The interchangeable OLPF system, while great for the owner-operator, is a small example of how it's hard for some camera folks who aren't regularly immersed in all things Red to remain mindful of how these varieties and options can impact a shoot...so imagine how much difficult and/or frustrating for a layman in a coordinator's chair.

On an aesthetic note, I think I'd also prefer the Magnesium body, but without having to take a hit on performance. I know Red may be reluctant to take a page from Arri's playbook, but this is an instance where having the same hardware built-in to all cameras of a similar line, but making certain distinctions on capabilities by way of licensed upgrades. So someone who doesn't want or need ProRes recording, or hi-speed, etc, can pay the lower price. All the rental houses will pay for the premium licenses, and there will likely be a better consistency among Weapon capabilities, whereas someone who doesn't operate in this high-end commercial world can put that money towards needs that better suit the individual. And of course, if they someday need to gain those premium capabilities in their cameras, they can go online, make a payment, and unlock it in camera without sending anything back to Red.

I tend to agree with Clint here. Having the same horsepower between CF Weapon man Mg Weapon makes the most sense...then it becomes a matter of unlocking the extra features by way of firmware upgrade when a project demands it, while making the 8K upgrade 'easier' when the time comes...of course I have no idea if this is actually easier but swapping the sensor instead of the additional processing guts at the same time seems like less work -but I'm no engineer!

From everything I've read it appears there will be an upgrade path for Mg Weapon at some unknown timeframe, but it could very well be NAB 2016. Is that realistic? Will people be satisfied with the current Mg Weapon specs for what in my case is $17,500 USD per camera? And a $20,000 USD premium on top for the 8K sensor?

FWIW I've said many times to anyone who asks (and not just here at RU) I'm greatly appreciative of the upgrade path by Red so not trying to stir the pot -only asking the rhetorical. It's a tough business question, and one of several I'm sure Jarred has been wrestling with...the R&D is not free of course!

Tarquin Cardona
04-20-2015, 06:32 AM
Agree i like mag body more than the tweedy carbon look. And agree firmware unlock approach smart.

Mark Andersen
04-20-2015, 06:45 AM
I think it's good to keep reminding people this is primarily a body/system upgrade and not a sensor/performance upgrade. The Weapon system addresses many issues and imperfections that Epic had. Modules, sound, heat, noise, etc. etc. RDC has simply made a better camera body and system, the performance and sensor improvements are for the next round of "fun".

Jeff Kilgroe
04-20-2015, 07:59 AM
Agree i like mag body more than the tweedy carbon look. And agree firmware unlock approach smart.

So you're advocating for having the cameras be the same internally, which they are not. And then have RED sell the Mg version of the camera for significantly less, at a loss, no doubt. Hoping that people will want to pay them down the road for certain features they want to unlock via firmware?

Sony and ARRI already do this. Even amongst the most die-hard ARRI fans I know, they think that business model is a steaming pile of horse poo.

FrankMcPartland
04-20-2015, 08:23 AM
Thanks Phil...

one other question:
I too mount my Bomb EVF with a NATO rail and RED Spinner --- I would still like to use that with Weapon if possible..

Could anyone please shed some light on this?


Thanks Michael & Phil!


I run the ViewFinder to the front along a nato rail with a spinner... just in front of the MB. I am worried the lemo adapter thing will not allow this... can you see any problem there?

thanks

Michael

Tarquin Cardona
04-20-2015, 08:37 AM
So you're advocating for having the cameras be the same internally, which they are not. And then have RED sell the Mg version of the camera for significantly less, at a loss, no doubt. Hoping that people will want to pay them down the road for certain features they want to unlock via firmware?

Sony and ARRI already do this. Even amongst the most die-hard ARRI fans I know, they think that business model is a steaming pile of horse poo.


Errrrr. No. I was wondering if you could get either processor in either body.

scott devitte
04-20-2015, 08:58 AM
Errrrr. No. I was wondering if you could get either processor in either body.

Jarred has stated that he can build you an 8k in an MG wrapper but there would be no cost saving.

Jeff Kilgroe
04-20-2015, 09:00 AM
Errrrr. No. I was wondering if you could get either processor in either body.

Well, it's not as simple as a processor.... But there is no reason they can't put the magnesium body panels on a carbon Weapon brain. Jarred mentioned doing this for Mike "Fireman" Ross in another thread, since he was concerned about the CF being exposed to heat for his volcano shooting.

Tarquin Cardona
04-20-2015, 11:27 AM
Volcano shooting sounds wild. You know its weird but when I was in chem class in school I would swear we used to burn strips of magnesium and that stuff was crazy. White hot and tough to put out.

Phil Holland
04-20-2015, 11:35 AM
Thanks for an extremely honest overview Phil. I think it is tricky for current Epic Dragon owners expressly because the performance enhancements in IQ are slim, and the codec Pro Res is adequate but not stellar. So in short, one is spending 20-40k at least for body change and some modest performance increase but this will not give one the immediate gratification of a greatly improved cam. And the 8k is great but for many good 4k is the goal for now. So tricky time for all in the decisions. I think these new cams are great for the new breed of first time buyer. But perhaps for current Epic Dragon owners another year or two of using what you have gives better ROI, and Red has stated the trade in values will be there for a good while yet so your current camera is not dead. IQ wise pretty it's much the same as the next gen.

This one is going to be a tough decision for some and a very quick decision for others.

The market I work in has been more or less demanding certain features that are found in Weapon. Everything is based on the Dragon sensor, but there are going to be slight quality improvements that do have an importance. I think the smaller body plays a big role in some of this as well as both model Weapons get you down in weight. Outside of that the various improvements add up for me. The quieter camera, scratch mics, ProRes, 3D LUTs, WiFI, a large Black Shade improvement, internally accurate timecode (curious to see and learn more about this and what can be done with it), the data rates, etc.... The new cableless tech combined with the tiny body and weight makes Weapon pretty damn portable too, and I think that's important for some. The new modules are more compact and well thought out as well. Things like the JETPACK are going to be useful for so many types of handheld, stabilized, and gimbal setups.

Basically how I'm looking at it is that I know there's a hell of a lot more horsepower in Weapon and RED's going to push hard to make Weapon the top production cinema camera. That's pretty much what this is all about. The general info leads my imagination in certain directions and I think I have a feeling where some of this is going. Plus the eventual 8K Dragon sensor and larger format that I've been desiring for a very long time.

Your current Dragon bodies aren't dead and that's the correct way to look at it. Scarlet, Epic, Weapon are all right now based off of the Dragon sensor tech and will be for a while. But Weapon is the new "top of the line" body in that lineup. And productions will take note of that.




one other question:

I run the ViewFinder to the front along a nato rail with a spinner... just in front of the MB. I am worried the lemo adapter thing will not allow this... can you see any problem there?


I don't see any reason the LEMO cable can't string to wherever your nato rail is. The LEMO ADAPTER A faces outwards towards the lens too when mounted to the body.



Agree i like mag body more than the tweedy carbon look. And agree firmware unlock approach smart.

The difficulty here is the components to get the processing power the same will end up costing more than the MG body today. Additionally RED provides free firmware updates adding features to cameras throughout the year and doesn't charge for that.

You want a camera that has hardware in it that is perfectly usable and you want to pay for a software/firmware/licenses just to be able to use it? I know that's how a couple of other camera companies do it, but I am dynamically apposed to this concept. But that's just my opinion.

Jeff Kilgroe
04-20-2015, 12:03 PM
Volcano shooting sounds wild. You know its weird but when I was in chem class in school I would swear we used to burn strips of magnesium and that stuff was crazy. White hot and tough to put out.

Yep, magnesium has a relatively low oxidation point and can flash/ oxidize violently. The thin magnesium strips don't need much heat to get going and yes they burn white hot. More nefarious uses in schools include things like using magnesium ribbons to weld the hinges on someone's locker and other such things. Then again, I was probably the biggest prankster in our school. I was amazed I still had friends by the time I graduated from HS. Anyway, the magnesium found in the Weapon brains is an alloy and we don't know any specifics. But even if the magnesium were to flash burn, it's still at a point beyond what the plastic bits and camera internals could handle.

Carbon fiber is a different animal and the resistance to heat, UV, etc. are dependent upon the makeup of the resin in which the fibers are laid. Some types can be rather heat resilient, some not. Or I should say, most of the time not.

There is no one perfect material to use. Forged or milled carbon is probably the closest to it and titanium would be the ultimate in terms of taking abuse, magnesium and aluminum are not as robust as the titanium, but lighter. I'd wager that the forged carbon version of the Weapon brain Jarred showed off at NAB is a glimpse of things to come. But the internal frames of these cameras are still something else for now and the foreseeable future. And most likely they are currently aluminum and/or steel.

Elsie N
04-20-2015, 12:20 PM
Yep, magnesium has a relatively low oxidation point and can flash/ oxidize violently. The thin magnesium strips don't need much heat to get going and yes they burn white hot. More nefarious uses in schools include things like using magnesium ribbons to weld the hinges on someone's locker and other such things. Then again, I was probably the biggest prankster in our school. I was amazed I still had friends by the time I graduated from HS. Anyway, the magnesium found in the Weapon brains is an alloy and we don't know any specifics. But even if the magnesium were to flash burn, it's still at a point beyond what the plastic bits and camera internals could handle.

Carbon fiber is a different animal and the resistance to heat, UV, etc. are dependent upon the makeup of the resin in which the fibers are laid. Some types can be rather heat resilient, some not. Or I should say, most of the time not.

There is no one perfect material to use. Forged or milled carbon is probably the closest to it and titanium would be the ultimate in terms of taking abuse, magnesium and aluminum are not as robust as the titanium, but lighter. I'd wager that the forged carbon version of the Weapon brain Jarred showed off at NAB is a glimpse of things to come. But the internal frames of these cameras are still something else for now and the foreseeable future. And most likely they are currently aluminum and/or steel.

I want a Carbon Fiber Ford F-250. '-)

Tarquin Cardona
04-20-2015, 12:21 PM
Wow that's some hardcore pranking:) Sodium being another source of crazy fun of course. As to Weapons of the Red variety. Something is telling me one would be wanting the innards of the CF for the greatest satisfaction whatever skin it is in.

Michael Lindsay
04-20-2015, 12:44 PM
I was delighted to get away from the aluminium mount of red one and love the Epic Ti mount... Apart for weight benifit reasons is Magnesium a step backward?

Ketch Rossi
04-20-2015, 01:02 PM
I was delighted to get away from the aluminium mount of red one and love the Epic Ti mount... Apart for weight benifit reasons is Magnesium a step backward?

NO, I would most definitely NOT called a step backward...

But also it depends in a lot of things, I of course do not know how exactly does RED process their Magnesium to make the Mag PL mount, how they used any particular Thermal Mechanical processing or otherwise to achieve what they have achieved for both the PL mount and the new Weapon Mag body parts.

But when the microstructure of the materials is well defined and controlled increasing strength exponentially then it's impact dampening resistance, capacities to reduce vibrations etc. you'll see Magnesium parts done right as a huge step forward, and of course especially also in consideration of been so light weight...

But Titanium is a bad ass material strong as hell... Also cheaper and easier to manufacturer i to parts then Mag. is.

I know I am going with the Mag PL mount on my personal Weapon Mag. 8k... :)

Christopher*Seguine
04-20-2015, 06:19 PM
I was delighted to get away from the aluminium mount of red one and love the Epic Ti mount... Apart for weight benifit reasons is Magnesium a step backward?


Aluminum mount was not so bad, the filter cracks from stress before the mount melts - like on this poor red one that captured great footage until it just was a little too close to the action.



https://0tpp0q.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2paFwXtf9fmTvZxhESpWB7dT-LwVN0lrhi68fUwSEpsgSE5pUvMN1xZTnzwkwERx7EP4jPHLSTg 6HmdY8888Q90g4WOwzS9G5AW8pm6GtUlvHKXMZh6xgXV6aocbH OmQUQTfYPWc7oSE653fhWWVD0Vg/poor-red1.jpg?psid=1

Tony Harris
04-21-2015, 09:24 PM
So what's the going price on the Switch blade side handle?

Akin A
04-21-2015, 09:42 PM
So what's the going price on the Switch blade side handle?
Weapon Sidekick is $1,150
http://www.red.com/store/products/weapon-sidekick-magnesium

Tony Harris
04-24-2015, 05:28 PM
Don't care about weapon...side kick for the epic if someone is selling.