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Terry VerHaar
04-15-2015, 10:39 AM
In a presentation this morning, Apple let it slip that 4K ProRes from Weapon is coming.

Tarquin Cardona
04-15-2015, 10:39 AM
Holy cow that is good news! Order went in.

Phil Holland
04-15-2015, 10:46 AM
It's something I've been hearing all show from all types of shooters.

Professionally though, rental houses and owners of multiple brands of cameras have been the more concerned parties. Folks who are will to buy 1-10 or more cameras where there's a lot of cash at play. I've been on the horn to a few people back in LA and that's oddly the biggest concern. Some of those folks work in television where the ProRes workflow is just flat out used because they sometimes need to turn content on the day.

If RED can get this done in the Weapon CF, which it sounds like it might be possible, there is literally no reason to ever purchase an ARRI Mini. At least not from my perspective. And with the simultaneous recording options being what they are we are past the Panasonic Varicam 35 in a few ways.

This would pretty much make Weapon the top camera in the industry from a variety of perspectives. And I think it would rent pretty damn well.

Tarquin Cardona
04-15-2015, 11:03 AM
This is good news though I am no the Mg train for now so hoping it is acheivable there too. I do not think it is beyond the scope of the camera processor and media - especially! - if they activate the pro res only feature - thank you very much. That is how this should be done.

Dunkan Wolf
04-15-2015, 11:12 AM
Did they say anything about frame rates?

Matt Ryan
04-15-2015, 11:14 AM
I figured if Weapon CF could do 120fps at 2k, it most likely could handle 4K at 60fps. (but what the hell do I know about that haha)

Nick Morrison
04-15-2015, 11:16 AM
Wow - this would be HUGE!!

Zeb B
04-15-2015, 11:16 AM
Our investigative reporter Terry V scoops the entire Industry with the 4K RED ProRes story first. Classic stuff!

Dunkan Wolf
04-15-2015, 11:18 AM
I figured if Weapon CF could do 120fps at 2k, it most likely could handle 4K at 60fps. (but what the hell do I know about that haha)

4K is 4x2k so that would make 30fps. But yeh i would love to see 60fps 4K ProRes.

Phil Holland
04-15-2015, 11:18 AM
If it's done perfectly in the CF body I would expect all 4K-6K resolutions and all frame rates supported in 4K ProRes if possible. Max frame rates at 6K and down sampling to 4K would be some real data to process though. Maybe it tops out somewhere in frame rate.

That might one of the differences however between CF and MG in this case.

We're not quite there yet with this particular feature to know hard details.

The fact that it might happen to the concept of it being integrated changes a lot of people's opinions though who absolutely need this workflow.

Heh. And I'm actually not one of those guys, but I totally see the value in this feature.

Tarquin Cardona
04-15-2015, 11:18 AM
Right. And if we get the 'Jarred said':) pro rez record only option rather than raw and pro rez simultaneously - who knows what could happen. But whatever it is it will be a good thing:)

Matt Ryan
04-15-2015, 11:20 AM
4K is 4x2k so that would make 30fps. But yeh i would love to see 60fps 4K ProRes.

Yeah but 30fps max is lame ;) 60 is a good number

scott devitte
04-15-2015, 11:23 AM
+1+1+1 CF8ks that need 4k prores!

Freya
04-15-2015, 11:44 AM
In a presentation this morning, Apple let it slip that 4K ProRes from Weapon is coming.

Are you sure about this?
It was one of the first questions I asked in the Weapon NAB2015 announcement thread and I got a big silence and Red seem to be talking a lot about 2K which made me ask the question in the first place.

I get the impression that Red are kind of just thinking of the ProRes as a low res proxy file or something but the reality is that UHD ProRes is already well underway on the Arri cams and people might want it in certain situations. Probably more so than 2K ProRes at this point. I think 1080p and UHD will be the most popular forms of ProRes in the future.

It's just the way Red have spoken about it makes it seem like 2K is the thing. :(

Freya

Zeb B
04-15-2015, 12:23 PM
This just in: Apple will announce Apple TV 4K at WWDC in June. This will revolutionize content delivery much like iPod did for music. It will be a hardware / software solution which will accelerate 4K adoption rates exponentially

Back to you Terry V

Terry VerHaar
04-15-2015, 01:34 PM
I am simply passing information forward that was stated, by an Apple rep, in a public presentation at the FCPWorks suite. He said that RED has assured him 4K is coming in a firmware update. I don't recall his name but I'll try and track it down.

Jean Déraps
04-15-2015, 01:46 PM
If I remember correctly RED has always been against using ProRES as an 'acquisition' format... so I have doubts that they would go the ProRES only menu option...if it meant sacrificing the .R3D acquisition....

Lee Saxon
04-15-2015, 01:53 PM
Some of those folks work in television where the ProRes workflow is just flat out used because they sometimes need to turn content on the day.


See, I've never understood this. Maybe it's about what people are used to, with raw being far newer to the motion world than to the stills world in which I mainly live. But to me a raw workflow is actually faster (not to mention more flexible).

jake blackstone
04-15-2015, 02:47 PM
See, I've never understood this. Maybe it's about what people are used to, with raw being far newer to the motion world than to the stills world in which I mainly live. But to me a raw workflow is actually faster (not to mention more flexible).

I'd like to point out, that camera owners and users are NOT the clients. The clients are the ones who decide what they NEED and they are the ones who pay- the producers. So, it's time to drop the "I'll tell you what you need" attitude and do whatever those clients ask for, even if you feel that they are wrong. Because clients are NEVER wrong by definition:)

Jeffery Anderson
04-15-2015, 02:53 PM
as much hype as 4k is... and I'm in the loin's den saying this... Broadcast is still 720.

But for that exact reason, I see the public asking for 1080 or 4k/UHD via the internet and finding new ways to broadcast

But simply, the need for a 'strait to tape' broadcast, doesn't require a UHD/4k master... not yet(why the 8-bit C300 is still popular)

David Battistella
04-15-2015, 03:18 PM
I'd like to point out, that camera owners and users are NOT the clients. The clients are the ones who decide what they NEED and they are the ones who pay- the producers. So, it's time to drop the "I'll tell you what you need" attitude and do whatever those clients ask for, even if you feel that they are wrong. Because clients are NEVER wrong by definition:)


Actually,

i think a 6k Prores file is better. No scaling needed, less hardware horsepower. If the Prores file pumps out whatever the camera is set to, no problem with scaling. If you window to 3k the Prores windows, etc. if you anamorphic the Prores is anamorphic , if you WS, the Prores WS, etc. matching the r3d.

its better to have the 6k for reframing, downscaling, stabilization, fx, keying, etc.

besides, the Prores will be 4444HQ and if the CLIENTS don't want Raw why shove it down their throats.

if weapon, as some suggest, is here to satisfy the features, rental, TV, MOW markets, then why not just give them a RED branded 6k Prores camera, because what I am reading here is that this is exactly what the industry and clients want.

But then maybe the argument will go back to skintones, or low light noise, or "we don't like the company and their fanboys" or reds break down and are unreliable, or they need blackshading, blah blah blah.

If the target is (and I am not even sure it is) for RED to get more feature and MOW production credits with weapon, then it might as well be 6k Prores. Why mess with this 2k and 4k proxy stuff?

With LUTs and Prores 6k they might get a step back into that world (again, if it is desired) and they will be ahead of the game.

I'm all about RAW, but Jake is right, I'm just a little owner operator filmmaker making 4k on my desktop, while the real production is pumping out tens of millions of dollars in production on 2k dcp because "Prores is faster" and that is "what the client wants".

One thing i know is that if they don't like RED and the love ARRI, then they will find any excuse to not like RED even if RED provides a camera with 6k Prores and LUTS and all the trimmings in a small form factor with all the latest tech.

We are headed towards 8K vista vision. It's a good strategy as it appears the 3d trend is dying and we can look to the digital version of 65mm as the new draw for Hollywood as cinemas become equiped with 4k digital projection and larger screens.

Maybe one strategy is that RED should only RENT the 8k weapon and not make it available for sale to the public.
Just RENT it out to the big budget production in China, London, NYC and Hollywood and India.

And maybe develop the new glass for it as well.

This way they can make the Weapon 8k special (in a Panavision kind of way) And offer 8k just to the top tier of production, where it is best suited and probably belongs.

It seems like a natural evolution.

anyhow, there is a lot in this post, but things could still go in so many directions right now. It's a time to be fluid.

jake blackstone
04-15-2015, 04:18 PM
Maybe one strategy is that RED should only RENT the 8k weapon and not make it available for sale to the public.
Just RENT it out to the big budget production in China, London, NYC and Hollywood and India.
And maybe develop the new glass for it as well.
This way they can make the Weapon 8k special (in a Panavision kind of way) And offer 8k just to the top tier of production, where it is best suited and probably belongs.


I think you mean Alexa 65 rental only model at $10k a day:)
Yesterday I saw 4K prores playback of Alexa 65 at Codex booth on 4k 65" monitor and it just about floored me. Images were simply stunning and I don't use this term lightly. Images had this familiar effortless feel to anyone, that used medium format camera. No sharpening, no noise, just simple perfection.Those images were acquired RAW, but they were showing Prores 4K.

Scott Crawley
04-15-2015, 04:26 PM
as much hype as 4k is... and I'm in the loin's den saying this... Broadcast is still 720.

But people are choosing to watch cell phone cat videos on YouTube at 1080.

What does it all mean?

I think it means that broadcast is on it's last leg, but what do I know? I dropped broadcast television over ten years ago. I recently moved from an Apple TV 1 (720) to a newer 1080 version and can't understand how I watched 720 for so long. The shit is ugly by comparison.

Björn Benckert
04-15-2015, 04:41 PM
Again, I think 4k proress from 8k sensor will be for a lot of reasons and situations superior to 8k raw.. the reason is what we call raw is also compressed. Think of it, when underexposed The video tap of epic recorded in proress is far less noisy than the same r3d downscaled to hd... why? Because the compression beats before downsample on the r3d. Same will apply when shotibg 8k and recornding downsampled 4k saved in proress.

Still fir other situations 8k r3ds will be a better option but far from allways. Red knows thus and I think rhats why they now put in this this proress feature.

jake blackstone
04-15-2015, 04:48 PM
Again, I think 4k proress from 8k sensor will be for a lot of reasons and situations superior to 8k raw.. the reason is what we call raw is also compressed. Think of it, when underexposed The video tap of epic recorded in proress is far less noisy than the same r3d downscaled to hd... why? Because the compression beats before downsample on the r3d. Same will apply when shotibg 8k and recornding downsampled 4k saved in proress.

Still fir other situations 8k r3ds will be a better option but far from allways. Red knows thus and I think rhats why they now put in this this proress feature.

Prores is a compressed codec too, so I don't understand the point. Larger size images actually benefit compression better, than the smaller size. In other words, 8k compressed vs 4k compressed using the same level of compression will result in higher quality, even after the down conversion to 4k, as long the compression had been applied to the highest resolution. This fact had been established many years ago by Rank Cintel.

Sven Seynaeve
04-15-2015, 04:53 PM
From day one of the anouncements i really didn't understood why red would take the risk and also let us make the risk with new hardware to once again not having 4K prores. It is is definatelly a very important factor for me to do the purchase or upgrade, just because some of the post issues that people still claim red for. I have used raw since day one and see no reason to change that, but it seems the world out there thinks different than me. so prores 4K at normal framerates with be a good start. If it' to hard to have it both then let us choose between raw or prores for the 4K. and for the highspeed framerates maby you can have files recorded in higher framerates and then copied over or transcoded shortly after the take to 4k prores.

Terry VerHaar
04-15-2015, 04:55 PM
I'd like to point out, that camera owners and users are NOT the clients. The clients are the ones who decide what they NEED and they are the ones who pay- the producers. So, it's time to drop the "I'll tell you what you need" attitude and do whatever those clients ask for, even if you feel that they are wrong. Because clients are NEVER wrong by definition:)

You are mostly right; some of the time. Except when you're not. Every persons situation is different and sometimes clients even value your advice and input. Go figure. :-)

Björn Benckert
04-15-2015, 04:55 PM
Prores is a compressed codec too, so I don't understand the point.

The point is its very different to compress after downsample then before.

After= good
before = far less good.

Simply the more the inage is downsampled the less noise there is to compress.

that is the reason why people at times get cleaner images out of their pix recorderd then out of their r3d's when comparing them in hd.

hope that example kind of explain what im hinting at.

Daniel Reed
04-15-2015, 05:22 PM
I figured if Weapon CF could do 120fps at 2k, it most likely could handle 4K at 60fps. (but what the hell do I know about that haha)

I suspect it may be more like 4K @ 30/29.976 fps for ProRes

Mark Pugh
04-15-2015, 05:25 PM
Might be a higher frame rate if R3Ds aren't being recorded, though. I hope so.

Daniel Reed
04-15-2015, 05:43 PM
Might be a higher frame rate if R3Ds aren't being recorded, though. I hope so.

maybe, I have no idea what magic chips hide inside Weapon :smiley:

If it has a separate hardware scaler, that may be the bottleneck; however
they could replace that chip all together before weapon ships to accommodate anything really.

Dr. Sassi
04-15-2015, 06:15 PM
Wouldn't be ProRes 4K not be RGB or three channel per pixel, and 8K raw only one color/channel G or G or R or B? (Given ProRes444_ vs R3D)

4K from 8K seems to make sense that way.

jake blackstone
04-15-2015, 06:25 PM
You are mostly right; some of the time. Except when you're not. Every persons situation is different and sometimes clients even value your advice and input. Go figure. :-)
You can start arguing with a client at your own risk. If the client asks for an opinion, then you may express it, but even then you may run into a difficult situation. Most clients couldn't give a damn about what you think and even if you're right. You still will be wrong, because your opinion may be not what they were hoping to hear. And that is why you will never see me trying to offer my opinion on the choice of equipment, lighting, direction, performance, editing, color choices etc. I just keep my mouth shut, smile and get paid. Life is too short and the market is too competitive. Being pro-anything, in my opinion, is a mistake. Being agnostic will keep you out of trouble. Expressing strong opinions will get you a reputation as being difficult.
If you're a DP, it is your job to keep your client out of trouble. If client wants to shoot 2k on Red, then it is clearly your responsibility to speak up. If client insists on using Alexa, you use Alexa. If client insists on using Prores with Weapon, guess what, Prores all the way.
If my client asks for Resolve, then Resolve it is, even though I know, that I can do much better job using other software I have. My job is to please and delight my customers, just like Apple:)

jake blackstone
04-15-2015, 06:36 PM
The point is its very different to compress after downsample then before.

After= good
before = far less good.

Simply the more the inage is downsampled the less noise there is to compress.

that is the reason why people at times get cleaner images out of their pix recorderd then out of their r3d's when comparing them in hd.

hope that example kind of explain what im hinting at.

As I said, the compression argument had been settled many years ago. Compressing larger image is a better way to go. As far as getting cleaner image out of pix recorders vs RAW, sorry, I had never seen it.

Marc Wielage
04-15-2015, 08:44 PM
If RED can get this done in the Weapon CF, which it sounds like it might be possible, there is literally no reason to ever purchase an ARRI Mini. At least not from my perspective.
There are always people who want to use cameras and other gear for philosophical and stylistic reasons. Sometimes it's a political issue, where the producer wants to only use a specific camera and takes the decision away from the DP. In truth, I think this is going to be a rental item much more than purchase, and 90% of users like this in LA will just rent it on the few days they need it, then use a full-size rig for everything else. Choice of camera is not a huge deal -- but the two things I'm not happy about are a) the DP being left out of the decision-making process, and b) producers and directors who want to use vastly different cameras within the same shot. All Red, All Alexa, All Canon, All Sony... I have no problem with that. But when you have Red, Canon, and (god forbid) a GoPro within the same scene... that gets very rough from a post point of view.

Ned Wilson
04-16-2015, 12:06 AM
It's something I've been hearing all show from all types of shooters.

Professionally though, rental houses and owners of multiple brands of cameras have been the more concerned parties. Folks who are will to buy 1-10 or more cameras where there's a lot of cash at play. I've been on the horn to a few people back in LA and that's oddly the biggest concern. Some of those folks work in television where the ProRes workflow is just flat out used because they sometimes need to turn content on the day.

If RED can get this done in the Weapon CF, which it sounds like it might be possible, there is literally no reason to ever purchase an ARRI Mini. At least not from my perspective. And with the simultaneous recording options being what they are we are past the Panasonic Varicam 35 in a few ways.

This would pretty much make Weapon the top camera in the industry from a variety of perspectives. And I think it would rent pretty damn well.

While I think Pro Rez is great, you have to ask yourself was it the lack of Pro Rez that has kept Epic from being the "top camera" ? C 300 perhaps the most rented camera out there never relied on Pro Rez. There are other factors at play. My first and foremost concerns will always be color and ease of use. If the Weapon nails these two then it's wide open. Oddly enough, these aspects are rarely mentioned on the forums but I know are big concerns amongst employers.

Phil Holland
04-16-2015, 12:16 AM
While I think Pro Rez is great, you have to ask yourself was it the lack of Pro Rez that has kept Epic from being the "top camera" ? C 300 perhaps the most rented camera out there never relied on Pro Rez. There are other factors at play. My first and foremost concerns will always be color and ease of use. If the Weapon nails these two then it's wide open. Oddly enough, these aspects are rarely mentioned on the forums but I know are big concerns amongst employers.

Happily and sadly I've been behind the curtain to learn, listen, and observe why certain cameras became more "in demand" for general production use. Some of those reasons I wouldn't air on public web forums. Some are price and speed based. Some are perceived "ease of use" based. Some are due to misinformation. Some are due to brand loyalty. Some it's just preference and that I'm okay with :)

Dragon has gained traction in the industry over the last two years because the color is as good or better than everything else out there. Recent comparisons and reviews from places like CML even seem to be happy about the color. Which is nice, because I don't feel so crazy when i was saying that in 2013 :)

Really Mysterium-X took major hits because of skin tones. Which were somewhat merited and somewhat not as you can get banging color out of MX if you know what you're doing. There are so many factors in there that come into play. IR being just one of them.

Dragon however has very, very good color. Nearly everybody I've shown Dragon to, shown footage to, worked with, shot with, etc. feels the same.

IF Weapon, and more importantly, any future Dragon Color Science enhancements come beyond DRAGONcolor and DRAGONcolor2 it will be better still.

Graeme works very hard on Color Science. What we've been seeing out of Dragon productions is a testament to that effort.

David Battistella
04-16-2015, 12:46 AM
The perceived "color issues" are just the latest in a long list of things people have used to discredit RED. Some people just don't like the way or the speed at which RED operate, some people are protecting investments in other, more expensive gear or the gear they invested in.

Its all fair game, but the color thing and the skintone thing is done. I'd say DC1 and 2 applied to MX also does amazing things so the whole ecosystem benefits from color science.

dragon is accurate, in tungsten, daylight and mixed lighting settings. Period. What you do from there is up to you.

i also have a pretty good idea about graeme's passion and how hard he works to get color right (which is no small task) his combination of eyes, coding skills and attitude (an image maker at heart) is of great benefit to us all.

to me Going RED has always been a no brainer and I've been happy and my customers have too.

But its not for everybody. RAW is not for everybody either, but it should be.

Dragon RAW is more like a "film negative", Prores, not so much.

Marc Wielage
04-16-2015, 01:23 AM
And that is why you will never see me trying to offer my opinion on the choice of equipment, lighting, direction, performance, editing, color choices etc. I just keep my mouth shut, smile and get paid.
Jake is very wise. :thumbsup:

Gunleik Groven
04-16-2015, 01:47 AM
I'd turn the coin, really David.

I did Dragon because the color improvements alone.

Eric Z
04-16-2015, 02:21 AM
For those who need the bitrates of the various ProRes codecs, here's a nice Excel table I created from Apple's Whitepaper (June 2014).
You can use it to make calculations and such, so it's more useful than just plain text in PDF format.

Mega link to download Excel file. (https://mega.co.nz/#!MM5m3C5S!xMexWlrA_A73AjbQZVzk5HSFHzWtgwdP6zLu9h5 V8nY)

Phil, if you find it useful, would be nice if you could host it on your end as well.
Cheers.

David Battistella
04-16-2015, 02:39 AM
I'd turn the coin, really David.

I did Dragon because the color improvements alone.

But with STH, it is really way, way more. Low Light, less noise, more top end, etc.

The Dragon Color alone is worth it, I agree.

Evin Grant
04-16-2015, 08:10 PM
I can't say much about features and commercials but in episodic TV the Alexa and Prores have dominated. They are famiar, fast and user friendly. Good enough really is in TV. Of course shows like "Better Call Saul" and "House of Cards" show what's really possible when creative produces embrace a vision and really care, but "making the day" is much more of a priority to most shows. We used to use Epics for smaller moving stuff a few seasons ago but have since switched to BMPCCs and the Sony A7s. Again "good enough" is the only criteria in TV.

Marc Wielage
04-16-2015, 08:38 PM
I can't say much about features and commercials but in episodic TV the Alexa and Prores have dominated. They are famiar, fast and user friendly. Good enough really is in TV. Of course shows like "Better Call Saul" and "House of Cards" show what's really possible when creative produces embrace a vision and really care, but "making the day" is much more of a priority to most shows. We used to use Epics for smaller moving stuff a few seasons ago but have since switched to BMPCCs and the Sony A7s. Again "good enough" is the only criteria in TV.
Fast enough is also a major criteria.

Bob Gundu
04-16-2015, 08:42 PM
I'm pretty surprised that weapon did not have a 4K out via SDI or HDMI. Perhaps in a future module.

David Battistella
04-16-2015, 11:24 PM
I'm pretty surprised that weapon did not have a 4K out via SDI or HDMI. Perhaps in a future module.

Redcast module. I think that requires a bit more processing power than what is on the brain.

David Battistella
04-16-2015, 11:26 PM
Hey evin,

do you think a 6k Prores file right off the camera would make a difference?



I can't say much about features and commercials but in episodic TV the Alexa and Prores have dominated. They are famiar, fast and user friendly. Good enough really is in TV. Of course shows like "Better Call Saul" and "House of Cards" show what's really possible when creative produces embrace a vision and really care, but "making the day" is much more of a priority to most shows. We used to use Epics for smaller moving stuff a few seasons ago but have since switched to BMPCCs and the Sony A7s. Again "good enough" is the only criteria in TV.

Alex Boothby
04-17-2015, 11:40 AM
Hypothetical question: now that H265 is getting closer, would it be feasible for Red to offer a future firmware upgrade to record H265 instead of prores? I wonder if that's technically possible... and if it could result in higher fps for Weapon M?

P.S. David, I hope Red is listening to your 6K Prores idea. You're probably correct that the bottleneck is scaling speed, not record data rate.

Sven Seynaeve
04-17-2015, 12:30 PM
H265. Seems a good idea; Especially regarding THE idea that Mark from offhollywood mentioned for uploading dailies directly to THE cloud

Scott Crawley
04-17-2015, 01:12 PM
H265. Seems a good idea; Especially regarding THE idea that Mark from offhollywood mentioned for uploading dailies directly to THE cloud

Sure, until a hacker leaks the next big superhero as if it were Jennifer Lawrence's booty or Amy Pascal's email.

OR- a hacker will leak Scarlet Johansson's super hero booty from dailies and the studio will pick up a legal case.

Jeffery Anderson
04-17-2015, 01:31 PM
Dailies need to Represent what you shot that day and to see if changes need to be made, but if the compression to 2k ProRes is a correct Representation ... who cares


you can use it as a Proxy File(what an AE would do in post) to go strait to the Editing bay.
Obviously you'll finish in R3d 6k/8k

Weapon won't be the High-FPS that the Epic is, it's most for better compression ratios and quality. Which is needed for Bigger Budget Features...

Alex Boothby
04-17-2015, 01:33 PM
Sure, until a hacker leaks the next big superhero as if it were Jennifer Lawrence's booty or Amy Pascal's email.

Worse yet and just as likely; a hacker will leak Scarlet Johansson's super hero booty and the studio will get the legal case.

Technicolor and other facilities upload hours of secure streaming dailies every day. They've been doing so for several years on some of very big shows.

http://www.postmagazine.com/Press-Center/Daily-News/2011/Technicolor-launches-dailies-solution.aspx

Scott Crawley
04-17-2015, 01:36 PM
Technicolor and other facilities upload hours of secure streaming dailies every day. They've been doing so for several years on some of very big shows.

I know, and unless they put more into infrastructure and security than Apple or Sony (or Target, TJ Maxx, Blue Cross Anthem, Chase Manhattan etc. you get the point) odds are their number is coming up too.

jake blackstone
04-17-2015, 01:44 PM
Hypothetical question: now that H265 is getting closer, would it be feasible for Red to offer a future firmware upgrade to record H265 instead of prores? I wonder if that's technically possible... and if it could result in higher fps for Weapon M?


Prores and H265 are not the same thing. One (4444 and 4444XQ) is an acquisition codec (Alexa and Amira anyone?) and the other is a delivery codec. One can be graded very well and the other one not so much.

Alex Boothby
04-17-2015, 01:53 PM
I know, and unless they put more into infrastructure and security than Apple or Sony (or Target, TJ Maxx, Blue Cross Anthem, Chase Manhattan etc. you get the point) odds are their number is coming up too.

My guess is that secure dailies streaming is here to stay. So is watching movies on an iphone, MP3s and other catastrophes of convenience. Reminds me of David Fincher's comment about the many decades we deliriously trusted under-paid, under-slept PAs to deliver original neg to the lab.

Scott Crawley
04-17-2015, 02:02 PM
My guess is that secure dailies streaming is here to stay. So is watching movies on an iphone, MP3s and other catastrophes of inconvenience. Reminds me of David Fincher's comment about the many decades we deliriously trusted under-paid, under-slept PAs to deliver original neg to the lab.

of course.

... Not that I am tacitly encouraging anyone to leak Scarlet's bodaciousness or anything... That would be wrong.

edit
... Unless her publicist were behind it

edit:
... With her consent and all... :-)

edit
security and and internet are two words that have no business together unless the word theater is involved. ;-)

Alex Boothby
04-17-2015, 02:15 PM
Prores and H265 are not the same thing. One (4444 and 4444XQ) is an acquisition codec (Alexa and Amira anyone?) and the other is a delivery codec. One can be graded very well and the other one not so much.

I haven't played with any H265 footage yet but it was "Hyped" (capital H) to have Prores 4444 quality at 1% of the file size. And no, I don't believe that, but it could be useful for on-set dailies. R3Ds would be used for final grade. I'm considering the Weapon Magnesium upgrade but am concerned by the prores specs. I'm just wondering if there's a lighter codec which could record simultaneous dailies at max fps.

Are H265 hardware encoders even on the market yet?

Alex Boothby
04-17-2015, 02:16 PM
of course.

... Not that I am tacitly encouraging anyone to leak Scarlet's bodaciousness or anything... That would be wrong.

edit
... Unless her publicist were behind it

edit:
... With her consent and all... :-)

edit
security and and internet are two words that have no business together unless the word theater is involved. ;-)

Makes me wonder what the final numbers were for The Interview. Looked like a marketing coup!

Scott Crawley
04-17-2015, 02:17 PM
Makes me wonder what the final numbers were for The Interview. Looked like a marketing coup!

But you would be wrong if you proposed that. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the film would have done so well without the spectacle, but the spectacle itself was no farce.

Alex Boothby
04-17-2015, 02:43 PM
But you would be wrong if you proposed that. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the film would have done so well without the spectacle, but the spectacle itself was no farce.

Not saying that secure dailies streaming doesn't have risks. Just saying that it is already in wide use and has been embraced by some very big shows. Presumably the studios, bond companies and insurance companies considered those risks.

Jeffery Anderson
04-17-2015, 02:49 PM
I think most DoP's will say, if they can lock in the look they want, in camera... then why send it over to a DIT or Post facility?

David Battistella
04-17-2015, 03:11 PM
I think most DoP's will say, if they can lock in the look they want, in camera... then why send it over to a DIT or Post facility?

I doubt there is not one feature film or commercial or even high end commercial that uses a 100% in camera look. It's just a pipe dream, even with all this LUT talk, it's a starting point, every setup has its challenges.

Would you you release a film without mixing the sound?

Scott Crawley
04-17-2015, 03:12 PM
Would you you release a film without mixing the sound?

Slam Dunkeroo!

Atta boy

Mat_G
04-17-2015, 03:35 PM
Besides the usual "producers like the straight to ProRes workflow"....

Using a platform like FRAME.IO would be the f'n future workflow for many smaller productions.

Shoot 6k r3d master w. 2k ProRes and upload your ProRes footage straight to Frame.IO for dailies.

Drag and freak'n drop.

No time consuming transcoding, everyone gets to view footage faster.

Marc Wielage
04-17-2015, 06:58 PM
I doubt there is not one feature film or commercial or even high end commercial that uses a 100% in camera look. It's just a pipe dream, even with all this LUT talk, it's a starting point, every setup has its challenges. Would you you release a film without mixing the sound?
Very well-said, David. People forget how massively things change in post, particularly in color. If anything, I find clients are demanding far more power windows and complex correction nowadays, doing things that were unthinkable even 5-6 years ago. A LUT isn't going to give you tracking power windows on every character's face in every shot, and sometimes that's what we have to do to give them the look they want.

David Mullen ASC
04-17-2015, 08:00 PM
I doubt there is not one feature film or commercial or even high end commercial that uses a 100% in camera look. It's just a pipe dream, even with all this LUT talk, it's a starting point, every setup has its challenges.

Would you you release a film without mixing the sound?

Even when movies were shot on film and finished photochemically, they were color-timed. Most DP's don't shoot entire features thinking that no color-correction will be needed later.

Corey_O
04-17-2015, 08:03 PM
Very well-said, David. People forget how massively things change in post, particularly in color. If anything, I find clients are demanding far more power windows and complex correction nowadays, doing things that were unthinkable even 5-6 years ago. A LUT isn't going to give you tracking power windows on every character's face in every shot, and sometimes that's what we have to do to give them the look they want.

Do you bill per face or per hour? ;)

Can you share the film stock you're using? ;)

Marc Wielage
04-17-2015, 11:26 PM
Do you bill per face or per hour? ;)
Just per hour of facility time. You can have window presets to speed the process along, but a lot depends on the quality of the initial lighting. The better that looks, the easier the job of the colorist. It's never a good idea to relight in post, but I think using post to enhance what's already there is great. If we can add a little fill (as one example) in a place that would be absolutely impossible to put a light on the stage, then I'm all for it. Same deal with adding flags and dodging, which I spend a lot of time doing. Placing shadows is often what 50% of the job entails.


Can you share the film stock you're using? ;)
My favorite stock in all my years at Technicolor & Complete Post was always Kodak 5219 Vision 3, which I think was really consistent for a 500 ISO film. I use that as the comparison for all digital cameras, and none of them quite have the dynamic range or color quality of this negative stock yet. But they're getting closer all the time. Years ago, I realized it didn't matter what the client shot on -- all that's important is that the pictures look good and the client is happy, within the available budget and schedule they have to work with.

All the movies that are still shooting on film (like the upcoming Star Wars VII mostly shoot on 5219 for interiors, though some go for a slower, finer-grain film for exteriors. No digital camera can tough those, either... yet. Strictly IMHO.

David Battistella
04-18-2015, 12:10 AM
Even when movies were shot on film and finished photochemically, they were color-timed. Most DP's don't shoot entire features thinking that no color-correction will be needed later.

David, I'm sure you can better confirm all of this but,


Yes,

color or correction and color timing are a creative phase of storytelling. It should be seen this way and not as a "fix" but as part of an entire process for the creation of a film.

Equating it to sound is a good analogy, sometimes you have to equalize an actors voice so their voice cuts the mix, the levels of different takes over different days requires a balancing.

With films, the sequence of shots makes a big difference to final color balance and levels, mood is also a contributing factor.

so thinking what you did on set is going to be what the public sees is actually a bit nearsighted. It is very important for the cinematographer to establish the look of the film through lighting contrast ratios, color and style, camera position, etc, but sometimes subtle changes are needed when shots are assembled.

This is why it is fundamental to capture a good negative and establish solid workflows and lines of communication for what you are intending. The chances of maintaining the look you intended and having your style as part of the production goes way up.

There are always exceptions. But my attitude has always been that a colorist is your friend, not the enemy. They are not there to make your stuff look bad, but to make everything look better. The best cinematographers understand that there is an "imaging chain" and it's good to be able to have a voice in every link including after footage had been handed over and when budget allows.