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Jarred Land
04-17-2015, 01:42 PM
I feel like alot of our Scarlet customers and the indie shooters out there are having some separation anxiety looking at the price point of Weapon and a few people are concerned we have forgotten about the "little guys".

Dont worry we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end.

Truth be told the Scarlet Dragon is anything but low end... It is actually a better camera than almost every high end camera out there if you actually compare the specs. And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near.

But Weapon isn't in Scarlet territory.. it never was intended to be a direct jump for most Scarlet owners. Remember, Weapon sits above Epic. And for the fortunate Scarlet owners that can do the jump.... we give you the option.

The requests for a Weapon to to have the price of a Scarlet is an unreasonable expectation. For Weapon we had to invent alot of new technology to make it possible. Remember we design our own ASICS, Sensors, Mechanicals etc. And that is not cheap. It is easy to just take machine vision sensors and off the shelf FPGAs and make an inexpensive camera. But they usually fall short. That of course getting better as the years go on... But so are we.

I believe it is some existing Epic customers that are in a position of contemplation. Part of that is from the confusion of the credits and options and some don't realize that we are giving you more than $10k off in credits or accessories, plus the value of your trade-in. You are actually paying somewhere around $12k all things considered to do the upgrade to MG Weapon depending on what you are going from. And that is a killer deal.

The Weapon fills a hole for the best of the best. It really is incredible. Even if you take away the 8K sensor, the improvements we have made to the form factor, the internal processing, ProRes, etc.. is a huge achievement. Our engineers solved alot of "impossibles" along the way. the 3rd party module support is finally going to make use of the modular vision. The Weapon has done extremely well this week with the customers it was made for. Wouldn't change anything about it.

And yes Mark that was a great analogy. We probably do spoil our customers. But our customers also spoil us...

Scott Crawley
04-17-2015, 01:48 PM
And order was once again restored to the land...

Thank you Jarred.

Nikhil Kamkolkar
04-17-2015, 01:55 PM
Dont worry we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end. Truth be told the Scarlet Dragon is actually a better camera than almost all high end cameras if you actually compare the specs. And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near. But Weapon isn't in Scarlet territory.. it never was intended to be a direct jump for most Scarlet owners. Remember, Weapon sits above Epic. And for the fortunate Scarlet owners that can do the jump.... we give you the option.

The requests for a Weapon to to have the price of a Scarlet is an unreasonable expectation. For Weapon we had to invent alot of new technology to make it possible. Remember we design our own ASICS, Sensors, Mechanicals etc. And that is not cheap. It is easy to just take machine vision sensors and off the shelf FPGAs and make an inexpensive camera. But they usually fall short. That of course getting better as the years go on... But so are we.

I believe It is some exiting Epic customers that are in a position of contemplation. Part of that is from the confusion of the credits and options and some don't realize that we are giving you more than $10k off in credits or accessories, plus the value of your trade-in. You are actually paying somewhere around $12k all things considered to do the upgrade to MG Weapon depending on what you are going from. And that is a killer deal.

The Weapon fills a hole for the best of the best. It really is incredible. Even if you take away the 8K sensor, the improvements we have made to the form factor, the internal processing, ProRes, etc.. is a huge achievement. Our engineers solved alot of "impossibles" along the way. the 3rd party module support is finally going to make use of the modular vision. The Weapon has done extremely well this week with the customers it was made for. Wouldn't change anything about it.

And yes Mark that was a great analogy. We probably do spoil our customers. But our customers also spoil us...

Glad you are not trying to change your number, Jarred… so… how about dinner saturday night? ;)

Seriously, I love all the education I get about the inner workings of what goes into one of these marvels from posts such as the above. I shot my first (and so far, only) feature on 35mm with an ARRI BL4… a beast! And every time I hold my DRAGON and fire it up, I just gaze at it in shock and wonder. So frickin' amazing!

Martin Stevens
04-17-2015, 01:57 PM
With posts like that from Jarred, you can put your trust in RED.

I am, and have since 2007.

Gavin Greenwalt
04-17-2015, 02:02 PM
I believe It is some exiting Epic customers that are in a position of contemplation. Part of that is from the confusion of the credits and options and some don't realize that we are giving you more than $10k off in credits or accessories, plus the value of your trade-in. You are actually paying somewhere around $12k all things considered to do the upgrade to MG Weapon depending on what you are going from. And that is a killer deal.

If it was actually $12k in cash I would be less contemplative. But there would still be some pretty big unknowns. I would lose my sidehandle which never leaves my camera and instead have the sidekick which I get a lot of people want and a lot of people hate the Sidehandle, but I've always been a fan. And if I move to XL without a side handle I'll only have 90 minutes of power without a REDVolt to failover to or the option of shooting for 30 minutes in an extremely lightweight handheld configuration. I love the ports all on the right with the Base Expander... but I'm already getting really excited about tethering which I would lose. I love the toolless attachment of the 7" but when I put it on a Noga it now requires a large bulk adapter. The image quality will be nearly identical. It looks like compression can be reduced by 10%. So ultimately I would say Epic vs Weapon for my configuration is kind of 1 step forward one step back on form factor when I look at it really closely. To me it feels more like a crossgrade than an upgrade. It would be like moving from FCP-7 to FCP-X when FCP-X was launched. But it's reassuring to hear that the DSMC Epic/Scarlet customers aren't going to be treated like FCP-7 customers. I look forward to hearing about what those options will be going forward for Epic Dragon owners.

Brian Boyer
04-17-2015, 02:13 PM
If it was actually $12k in cash I would be less contemplative. But there would still be some pretty big unknowns. I would lose my sidehandle which never leaves my camera and instead have the sidekick which I get a lot of people want and a lot of people hate the Sidehandle, but I've always been a fan. And if I move to XL without a side handle I'll only have 90 minutes of power without a REDVolt to failover to or the option of shooting for 30 minutes in an extremely lightweight handheld configuration. I love the ports all on the right with the Base Expander... but I'm already getting really excited about tethering which I would lose. I love the toolless attachment of the 7" but when I put it on a Noga it now requires a large bulk adapter. The image quality will be nearly identical. It looks like compression can be reduced by 10%. So ultimately I would say Epic vs Weapon for my configuration is kind of 1 step forward one step back on form factor when I look at it really closely. To me it feels more like a crossgrade than an upgrade. It would be like moving from FCP-7 to FCP-X when FCP-X was launched. But it's reassuring to hear that the DSMC Epic/Scarlet customers aren't going to be treated like FCP-7 customers. I look forward to hearing about what those options will be going forward for Epic Dragon owners.

From what I understand, Element Technica is making a side handle. It won't house the Redvolt like before but the XL module you get for free with the Weapon upgrade can use them, a la the Peter Jackson Weapon photo.

BrendanLeahy
04-17-2015, 02:17 PM
From what I understand, Element Technica is making a side handle. It won't house the Redvolt like before but the XL module you get for free with the Weapon upgrade can use them, a la the Peter Jackson Weapon photo.

This is OK, but if you really want to strip down RED for a handheld shoot alone, it would still be great to see some sort of Side Handle 2.0. Keep everything as small and as light as possible.

BrendanLeahy
04-17-2015, 02:18 PM
Dont worry we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end. Truth be told the Scarlet Dragon is actually a better camera than almost all high end cameras if you actually compare the specs. And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near. But Weapon isn't in Scarlet territory.. it never was intended to be a direct jump for most Scarlet owners. Remember, Weapon sits above Epic. And for the fortunate Scarlet owners that can do the jump.... we give you the option.

The requests for a Weapon to to have the price of a Scarlet is an unreasonable expectation. For Weapon we had to invent alot of new technology to make it possible. Remember we design our own ASICS, Sensors, Mechanicals etc. And that is not cheap. It is easy to just take machine vision sensors and off the shelf FPGAs and make an inexpensive camera. But they usually fall short. That of course getting better as the years go on... But so are we.

I believe it is some existing Epic customers that are in a position of contemplation. Part of that is from the confusion of the credits and options and some don't realize that we are giving you more than $10k off in credits or accessories, plus the value of your trade-in. You are actually paying somewhere around $12k all things considered to do the upgrade to MG Weapon depending on what you are going from. And that is a killer deal.

The Weapon fills a hole for the best of the best. It really is incredible. Even if you take away the 8K sensor, the improvements we have made to the form factor, the internal processing, ProRes, etc.. is a huge achievement. Our engineers solved alot of "impossibles" along the way. the 3rd party module support is finally going to make use of the modular vision. The Weapon has done extremely well this week with the customers it was made for. Wouldn't change anything about it.

And yes Mark that was a great analogy. We probably do spoil our customers. But our customers also spoil us...

Great to hear. This should be on page 1, or made into a separate post altogether (since this and posts like it are a bit scattered everywhere right now). I think it'll calm the storm a bit.

Jarred Land
04-17-2015, 02:21 PM
actually probably a good idea Brendan.

BrendanLeahy
04-17-2015, 02:42 PM
actually probably a good idea Brendan.

Thanks! Glad to see everything clarified and know RED is still thinking about all of its users :smile:

Brian Boyer
04-17-2015, 02:45 PM
Keep everything as small and as light as possible.

Hence, the weight savings of Mg and CF on the smaller Weapon body versus AL Epic/Scarlet with the original side handle? The weights could be very similar. Just a thought.

Scott Crawley
04-17-2015, 02:55 PM
Whoa... deja vu


https://youtu.be/z_KmNZNT5xw

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130119093414/matrix/images/7/7d/Deja_Vu.jpg

sorry, couldn't resist. ;-)

BrendanLeahy
04-17-2015, 02:59 PM
Hence, the weight savings of Mg and CF on the smaller Weapon body versus AL Epic/Scarlet with the original side handle? The weights could be very similar. Just a thought.

This is true.

I forgot to mention before: the other benefit of the DSMC side handle (aside from keeping the length of the body small/light and just expanding width) is being able to blindly/quickly go through menu settings. I film a lot of concerts, and it's a lot quicker than trying to keep steady and navigate the touchscreen!

Jeremiah Patton
04-17-2015, 03:00 PM
"And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near. "

That's all I needed to hear, thank you Jarred!

Sincerely the little[r] guy!

Brian Boyer
04-17-2015, 03:10 PM
This is true.

I forgot to mention before: the other benefit of the DSMC side handle (aside from keeping the length of the body small/light and just expanding width) is being able to blindly/quickly go through menu settings. I film a lot of concerts, and it's a lot quicker than trying to keep steady and navigate the touchscreen!

I have no idea but I'm willing to bet that functionality will remain in the new version.

Chase M. Wrenn
04-17-2015, 03:43 PM
Just got my Scarlet Dragon in today....SUPER EXCITED, even more so after reading this :-)

Milan S.
04-17-2015, 04:01 PM
If it was actually $12k in cash I would be less contemplative.

This is the thing. It's really closer to $20 that we have to come up to move from Epic to Weapon regardless of the generous accessory offer.

And while the accessory offer is great, most of us already have close to $10k in accessories and modules that will not work with Weapon.
I don't expectt these will fetch very much on used market..... I understand the accessory offer is designed to soften the blow which it does greatly but it's not like getting free stuff because we are bricking a bunch of modules we already have.

Secondly, I love my Epic Dragon and would be happy for many years with it.... The problem is the future upgrade path - That's what everybody is worried about. While perfectly capable at the moment, it doesn't make financial sense NOT to upgrade to Weapon, unless you are planning on spending $50k+ on a new camera in a couple of years.

Lastly, like Jarred pointed out, Weapon is actually cheaper than Epic when it rolled out so it's painful to see the upgrade cost rise to almost twice as much as it did for Epic. Not to mention that the spec leap when we upgraded to Epic was an amazing value.
Maybe that's impossible to replicate with Weapon but it's kind of what people are comparing it too.

Cheers!

Mark Crabtree
04-17-2015, 04:03 PM
"And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near. "

So, does this mean that in the future there will be a next gen sensor (Beyond Dragon) upgrade for Scarlet and Epic bodies,
or does it mean that the next gen sensor will only work in Weapon but Scarlet and Dragon will still be supported with firmware updates?

Mathias Erichsen
04-17-2015, 04:28 PM
This is great news for all Scarlet Dragon owners! :)

Nick Morrison
04-17-2015, 05:42 PM
And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near.


This is GREAT to hear. Thanks Jarred. RED + INDIE are an unbeatable team. Can't wait to see what's in store for Scarlet Dragon!

Grant Smucker
04-17-2015, 06:21 PM
Thanks Jarred!

Thomas Koch
04-17-2015, 07:08 PM
I'm sorry to say this, but $19.5K is just too much for me. I love my dragon and will continue to use it and rent it as much as I can, but I can't swing that much coin. I'm sure it will still be in use 2 years from now, and along with whatever camera platform I move to in the future.

Lee Saxon
04-17-2015, 07:40 PM
Having seen your posts a few weeks back that Weapon was an addition to the line-up not a replacement for Epic or Scarlet, I was not nervous that the "low end" was being "abandoned." Though of course I'm glad to hear you reaffirm it.

The only thing that DOES make me nervous (for you guys, as much as for the customers, because as you say R&D costs and volume are big issues in a market this small) is having two separate lines of modules. I'm really looking forward to seeing that addressed. Maybe an Epic Dragon 1.1 and Scarlet Dragon 1.1 which are identical except for the new module connector (and maybe they should also have the new cable-less monitor ports so you won't have to build two sets of monitors )? Maybe some new version of the +1 module which also adapts to the new module connector?

BRANDON JAMESON
04-17-2015, 07:40 PM
Bravo, Mister Land!!!

M.Halsell
04-17-2015, 08:05 PM
The foreword from Jarred was appropriate and timely. The Weapon is an aggressive initiative and priced accordingly. But zooming out a bit, this type of market leadership is RED's DNA. RED is still a young company compared to the other camera manufacturers. So they have to be careful, footing has to be sure. Do we really want to see RED collapse from an implosion? Some owners will have to stand down on the upgrade, albeit unfortunate and with gritted teeth, but no harm no foul, no conspiracy or indictment. Its a knuckle game, from the top with the RED inner circle all the way to the bottom to every RED user trying to make it happen.

RED has yet to gimp on any camera product. There have been some misses accessory wise, but RED has always given the correct amount of energy and consideration to their cameras. Still alot of business out here, alot more shooting thats gotta be done. Its not going away. The RED ecosystem now has 3rd party module support, better regional camera support, bigtime directors endorsing and actively using RED cameras, Prores (a step in the right direction), solid leadership with Jarred (no wishy washy suit and tie guy), big daddy Jim (pretending to be retired) and Graeme (the silent giant). Very little downside, very little.

Jacob Callaghan
04-17-2015, 10:48 PM
I must say i was rather underwealmed with the release of the weapon. I am currently an mx owner. I love the camera. I love reds customer service and attention to detail.

I like the weapon i think it fills alot of needs that many high end users need. Although i am not a high-end user. I am not shooting large budget big production projects. I also feel alot of red users are not. To me what has made this camera so special is the ability to take the upmost quality and put in the hands of the indie film maker. I see perfectly clear why red would want to branch out to the highend market and directly compete with arri. I just hope they do not abandon those that are not able to justify the price. My epic mx is a great camera and i will continue to shoot with it for years to come. I just hope red wont forget us and give us the new core technology but in the base line version. I dont need prores and all of the big procution workflow solutions. I need the striped down version. But i dont want to see it be as stripped down as the scarlet. I would love to see red have two versions of there highend cameras. One the luxury model with every bell and whistle. And then the other same sensor same frame rates just no need for all the extra things that not everyone uses.

Phil Holland
04-17-2015, 10:58 PM
I would love to see red have two versions of there highend cameras. One the luxury model with every bell and whistle. And then the other same sensor same frame rates just no need for all the extra things that not everyone uses.

Kind of like Epic and Weapon Dragon?

:)

Seriously though. What you described is exactly what Weapon is all about. It's a full force production camera. A powerful one at that. It's targeted towards users who need those extra features because there are certain areas of the industry that are "asking for more and more" from our cameras. Weapon is giving that "more" and here we are.

Jarred stated that if you are a Dragon owner you will have an upgrade path in the future to new tech. We don't know what that will cost or when, but RED is paying attention to everybodies wants and needs.

Brandon Kelly
04-17-2015, 11:05 PM
"And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near. "

Thanks for the post Jarred. I own a Scarlet mx and love my camera. Hopefully one day soon I can upgrade to Scarlet D! This just made me even more motivated to try and make that move. Thanks man.

Micheal Del Castillo
04-17-2015, 11:21 PM
"And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near. "

Thanks for the post Jarred. I own a Scarlet mx and love my camera. Hopefully one day soon I can upgrade to Scarlet D! This just made me even more motivated to try and make that move. Thanks man.


Do you not have to upgrade to Dragon by June and loose the upgrade option completely?

Christoffer Glans
04-18-2015, 04:07 AM
Isn't Weapon Magnesium and Weapon Carbon just high end versions of Scarlet Dragon and Epic Dragon.
There are similarities to them both.

Weapon Carbon is like Epic Dragon; the high end processing power to enable the best capabilities of the Dragon sensor.
Weapon Magnesium is like Scarlet Dragon; the same kind of body with the same kind of specs up to a point of certain capabilities not available because of the lower computing power.

Isn't it all just a four part ladder for the cameras?

1. Weapon Carbon = The best camera available with 8K possibilities.
2. Weapon Magnesium = Lower computing power but with the same capabilities when on the same settings as Weapon Carbon.
3. Epic Dragon = Lower computing power than Weapon Magnesium but with the same capabilities on the same settings as Weapon Magnesium.
4. Scarlet Dragon = Lower computing power than Epic Dragon, but with the same capabilities as Epic Dragon on the same settings.

I don't see the problem with this lineup. Scarlet Dragon is no way near Weapon Carbon and is more close to Epic Dragon. Epic Dragon is more close to Weapon Magnesium than Weapon Carbon and so on.

Dunkan Wolf
04-18-2015, 04:35 AM
Hopefully prices will come down sometime in 2016...

I would gladly pay for Weapon if 6K was a 10k$ upgrade and 8K a 20k$ upgrade.

Patrick Grossien
04-18-2015, 04:56 AM
All money talk aside, what I don't quite understand is where the plan stems from not using the weapon body for epic and scarlet insides. I thought that has just not come yet, but Jarred's comment about the AL weapon (just a body upgrade without changing insides) being not too bad of an idea suggests that it never was intended to be used for the other product lines.

Scott Crawley
04-18-2015, 05:14 AM
All money talk aside, what I don't quite understand is where the plan stems from not using the weapon body for epic and scarlet insides. I thought that has just not come yet, but Jarred's comment about the AL weapon (just a body upgrade without changing insides) being not too bad of an idea suggests that it never was intended to be used for the other product lines.

Knowing that Jim and Jarred are image craftsmen at heart my theory about this begins with a film analogy. How many times have we sat back and watched our completed film and focused compulsively upon one shot or sequence that didn't turn out just right? I could go back endlessly tweaking, trying to fix every little thing but eventually you have to let it go.

With hardware systems like these there is no going back, so how do you fix those irritating shortcomings? The only way to erase those mistakes is to start again from zero and go for absolute model wide perfection. That's what you do.

Andrey Blanco
04-18-2015, 05:19 AM
All money talk aside, what I don't quite understand is where the plan stems from not using the weapon body for epic and scarlet insides. I thought that has just not come yet, but Jarred's comment about the AL weapon (just a body upgrade without changing insides) being not too bad of an idea suggests that it never was intended to be used for the other product lines.

I would Like to hear that too, I think in order to keep most people attache two RED they must offer at least one of these:

1) Weapon Body upgrade only (Without Changing inside, ProRes, etc)
or
2) Weapon Body Upgrade a bit cheaper. instead of offer those "FREE" accessories.

This is by far the most expensive RED upgrade program ever with the less benefits (Proress and mostly aesthetic improvement) if you think from RED ONE to Epic Stage 3 was only $10,500 with a lot of improvements (Higher Speeds, 5K, Small and Lither body, etc, etc) Something is not Right with weapon Program and RED sooner or later will realize it .

I'm don't think I'm going to upgrade now until they offer more sexy options, But I know I will start exploring other alternatives to keep my business running. Right now invest $16,000 on a C300MKII instead of Weapon looks like make more sense and deserve some serious consideration.

Scott Crawley
04-18-2015, 05:38 AM
I think in order to keep most people attache two RED they must offer at least one of these:

1) Weapon Body upgrade only (Without Changing inside, ProRes, etc)
or
2) Weapon Body Upgrade a bit cheaper. instead of offer those "FREE" accessories.

But Weapon is not made for "most" of us. It is not an Epic replacement, it is a new and somewhat niche top end model. Vista Vision and the expense of larger formats are niche products and it makes sense for Red to create a new line for those things to exist in. To rephrase, I believe that some of the Weapon product line yet to come may exist in a more traditional film business model which is a rent/lease model only due to the limited nature of the demand. That is what I am finally coming to understand thanks to this thread.

Sure we would all like to have access to Vista and medium formats but we can not or will not pay the freight to own it. It is a rental product. The cost is what makes them of limited demand, not our interest. With that in mind I think as technology marches on Weapon will trickle down, but I'm not waiting for it and I certainly wouldn't kill myself to own it now.

The whole scenario puts the cinema tech rental game into sharper relief for me, now that the cycle is repeating and the ripple expanding. How long will it take computing and storage to come down in price and make the cost of digital Vista more accessible as to become commonplace... six years, maybe... eight?

Patrick Grossien
04-18-2015, 05:56 AM
Knowing that Jim and Jarred are image craftsmen at heart my theory about this begins with a film analogy. How many times have we sat back and watched our completed film and focused compulsively upon one shot or sequence that didn't turn out just right? I could go back endlessly tweaking, trying to fix every little thing but eventually you have to let it go.

With hardware systems like these there is no going back, so how do you fix those irritating shortcomings? The only way to erase those mistakes is to start again from zero and go for absolute model wide perfection. That's what you do.

I understand what you're saying. I only think the analogy doesn't quite apply. The way you're putting it, Scarlet and Epic would be obsolete, but they are not and neither is the path they are on.

Starting over doesn't exclude starting over with Scarlet and Epic models. Or for sake of leaving out the model names and making it more comparable to the R1-EPIC change: the low, middle and top product lines can all share that sort of makeover and become something different, something new.

So, what I don't see is why that makeover can't be applied (in form factor, I/O options or placement, etc) towards the lower end of the product line if these lines are not meant to be dropped. I'm not talking about 8K or more processing power or more functionality. Im only talking about the same way Scarlet and Epic have been sharing the same modules and form factor. I don't see anything in the form factor that wouldn't seem possible or useful for Scarlet shooters and their cameras.

As I said: I always thought that will come in maybe a year or two, but Jarred's comment sounded that is not or was not the plan.

Antonio Forjaz
04-18-2015, 06:08 AM
Hi Jarred,

Thanks for everything, and I think everyone should just say thanks to begin with, and not whine...I never seen any other company in the world do what RED does. How many computers, cameras etc I have lying around that simply don't cut it any more???? Yet, my Red One MX SSD still kicks ass, and it is a few years old. I took it out the other day, up graded the firmware and shot...and it looked great.

I am just happy to have ordered on the first day, hope my time stamp is low and I get weapon soon. I have a feature to shoot in September, you think by then, Weapon will be in my hands???

Best

Antonio

Patrick Grossien
04-18-2015, 06:16 AM
...
I'm don't think I'm going to upgrade now until they offer more sexy options, But I know I will start exploring other alternatives to keep my business running. Right now invest $16,000 on a C300MKII instead of Weapon looks like make more sense and deserve some serious consideration.


Andrey, there's no need to react! I saw this with Final Cut X and with hardware products as well... As soon as people dont understand what the company is up to, they drop everything and leave. No matter if the current product is working great or not.

I've said this before:
Scarlet and Epic are producing the same image quality as Weapon as long as the same settings are being applied. Similar to how Scarlet and Epic were comparable to each other until now, Epic and Weapon are now to each other.
The Dragon sensor is delivering (and not only from my point of view) the best image in the industry. Just because no new camera has been announced this year for the lower end of the camera food chain from RED, doesn't mean they are old or obsolete or should be exchanged. I for one don't need a new camera every year ;)

If Weapon doesn't offer anything new for you personally, just keep on using what you have! I would love to have some of the new things Weapon is offering. But Scarlet Dragon and Epic Dragon are two of the best cameras out there and there's no reason not to wait another year and see what RED comes up with. And I know they'll have something new for all of us sometime down the road. Save your money or invest in lenses or other gear. That's what I'll do.

Tim Morten
04-18-2015, 06:32 AM
I'm an an Indy, more hobbiest than pro. Red is outstanding for providing an upgrade path, and it is sorely tempting at $12k, but I compare the cost with the personal value (different from the absolute value), and I don't think I can justify.

Don't need prores, weight/calibration/noise/DR appear to be evolutionary changes rather than revolutionary, cost of new media/accs is non-trivial even with the very generous subsidy. Vista would be awesome, but the CF plus sensor fee is out of my ballpark. The MG would be a stretch, but the personal value would have to add up to $12k, and I'm on the fence about that.

I really appreciate the reassurance that Dragon is not EOL, and that we will still have an upgrade path in the future. Red is an outstanding company.

Hugh Scully
04-18-2015, 06:49 AM
I finally plunked down on a new Scarlet Dragon and I could not be happier. The skintones, highlight handling, the beautiful texture, and the richness and depth of the color are just knocking me out. It's the same sensor. It's a Red Dragon.

Here's what I figure: As Red improves its technology including color science, making Weapon for Fincher, and all you high end Dudes, a lot of that tech comes pouring down the rest of the line. Weapons make for better Scarlets.

Curran Giddens
04-18-2015, 07:59 AM
Thanks Jarred. I have a Scarlet Dragon for my own personal camera. It is assuring to know that there will still be lower priced options in the future for those of us who can't afford to jump into the Weapon options available at this time. If it was just me you know I would have jumped all-in for the 8K VV sensor within a minute it it going live in the store. But now I have a family to think about and couldn't justify the cost / benefit. My only suggestion is to offer a Brain-only option with no accessory credit, and then lower the price as much as you can. I know you want everyone to have the new accessories, and I would love to have them, but I don't need $10k worth of accessories to get started with Weapon. I'm already using mini-mags. I would prefer to buy just the accessories I want, when I want them. Besides, I know how your package deals usually work on in-stock accessories... it is just full retail price when you add it up. Haha. But I love you guys. I'm not going anywhere.

Nick Pasquariello
04-18-2015, 08:15 AM
I'm glad for this, but also feel a little bit squeezed. I haven't upgraded my Scarlet to Dragon, or Epic, and don't know how much I should try to squeeze my bank account to do so before the upgrade path shuts down this summer. Without knowing what the future holds for this line (That is, the Scarlet equivalent of Weapon), I'm in a little bit of a bind. Do I kill myself to upgrade now on faith that I'll want the next upgrade too?

I'm not asking for a price cut, or any change of plans. Just wanted to point out that it's a rough decision to make when we specifically lack some information.

Bill Stengel
04-18-2015, 08:20 AM
Thanks for addressing this, Jarred.
The whaaambulance showed up and helped me down off of my tantrum soapbox about the SCARLET-EPIC upgrade window. I'm now looking at it as a motivator to crank out the work to make it happen.

Phil Holland
04-18-2015, 08:27 AM
I'm glad for this, but also feel a little bit squeezed. I haven't upgraded my Scarlet to Dragon, or Epic, and don't know how much I should try to squeeze my bank account to do so before the upgrade path shuts down this summer. Without knowing what the future holds for this line (That is, the Scarlet equivalent of Weapon), I'm in a little bit of a bind. Do I kill myself to upgrade now on faith that I'll want the next upgrade too?

I'm not asking for a price cut, or any change of plans. Just wanted to point out that it's a rough decision to make when we specifically lack some information.

Tough call as nobody can make that decision for you. If you want to stay on the general upgrade path you will need to upgrade from Mysterium-X to Dragon. Honestly, considering that you can for the next couple months I would. There is no more upgrade path for Mysterium-X after the program ends this summer. You will need to have that Dragon sensor at a minimum to continue forward.

Scarlet Dragon will have an upgrade path in the future, so that's what can comfort you in that direction. I don't know if there will be a Scarlet-type "equivalent" to Weapon as Weapon is all about powerful processing and feature set and Scarlet is the entry level body.

Don't feel squeezed. RED's laid out what the Weapon upgrade is and the various credits and trade-in values are. If the camera specs make sense for your work than you can have the Dragon sensor in the top of the line body.

The thing is that the next sensor technology is likely 1-3 years away. I'm guessing closer to 2-3 years actually. RED won't be divulging anything about a new sensor and what exactly those plans are now because A. it's too early, B. the competition would have a real leg up, C. they themselves might not fully know all the details.

Maik Müller
04-18-2015, 08:51 AM
I feel like alot of our Scarlet customers and the indie shooters out there are having some separation anxiety looking at the price point of Weapon and a few people are concerned we have forgotten about the "little guys".

Dont worry we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end.

Truth be told the Scarlet Dragon is anything but low end... It is actually a better camera than almost every high end camera out there if you actually compare the specs. And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near.
It's a bit sad that you felt enough pressure to make a clarification about this topic - this alone should tell us a few things.

Thank you!

Maik Müller
04-18-2015, 09:11 AM
I'm not clear about what it tells you or why. Perhaps you are not familiar with the way this came into being?
To start with: Jarred getting a bit emotional and feeling the need to address the Scarlet-customers, assure them about a bright future and trying to explain (again) what Weapons is (and what its not), why it is pricier... This alone is so contrary to all those assumptions about RED forgetting their "low end"-sector and indies.

But you are right, i didn't read the post to which Jarred replied.

Scott Crawley
04-18-2015, 09:22 AM
To start with: Jarred getting a bit emotional and feeling the need to address the Scarlet-customers, assure them about a bright future and trying to explain (again) what Weapons is (and what its not), why it is pricier... This alone is so contrary to all those assumptions about RED forgetting their "low end"-sector and indies.

But you are right, i didn't read the post to which Jarred replied.

I have read many postings of Epic and Scarlet users alike who felt that the writing was on the wall and Epic/Scarlet were EOL, on their way out, and since they could not afford to keep up with $50k that they were going to bail on Red all together. They felt unsupported, their gear rapidly devaluing and that Red was evolving beyond them.

You may see no validity in it, but Jarred apparently felt it was important enough to put it to rest. Many of us are appreciative that he did. So what does that tell you about us? I still don't get it.

Maik Müller
04-18-2015, 09:38 AM
I have read many postings of Epic and Scarlet users alike who felt that the writing was on the wall and Epic/Scarlet were EOL, on their way out, and since they could not afford to keep up with $50k that they were going to bail on Red all together. They felt unsupported, their gear rapidly devaluing and that Red was evolving beyond them.

You may see no validity in it, but Jarred apparently felt it was important enough to put it to rest. Many of us are appreciative that he did. So what does that tell you about us? I still don't get it.
I saw the same postings and i appreciate what Jarred did. It was the right step and hopefully helps people to calm down a bit.

What i think is, that there were some emotional reactions from the user-base, partly understandable, but mostly just filled with assumptions and "reading between the lines". History should tell us enough about RED to have more faith. In fact, there was no REAL reason to be disappointed or even start thinking about RED dropping the indie-market. If you had followed Jarred's posts in the past, everyone should know that RED still loves Scarlet and doesn't want to get rid of the user-base.

Then there was the hint about the Dragon-upgrade. Do you really think Jarred personally would have mislead Scarlet-owners into a upgrade to a EOL-camera without telling us it will be the final incarnation? He would have communicated it differently.

So i feel sorry for Jarred and RED, because i think this sort of feedback might have been a bad surprise for them.

Nikhil Kamkolkar
04-18-2015, 09:55 AM
So i feel sorry for Jarred and RED, because i think this sort of feedback might have been a bad surprise for them.

Agreed. I'm sure they would have loved it if the reaction had been 100% positive, with raving notes from all. Same way any of us would want to happen for any of our products that we create.

I think its important for us all to reiterate every so often that RED truly has done an amazing job here. Celebration is as important as Critique. I hope Jarred and co are ready for our heightened expectations of them moving forward. A lot of this could have been avoided with better expectation management, but when you have so many moving parts, and I'm sure a pretty slim crew handling all of this kind of work at RED, its a lot to ask for.

No harm, no foul as someone said. I think we can move on now and get to some interesting places.

One thing I'll say is this - I was always in favor of dropping the upgrade program post RED ONE. But now, I think RED should just embrace the darn thing and be the BEST AT IT! That may mean not having it as a favor they do for their customer base, but as a FEATURE of the RED PLATFORM.

Making that pivot will help RED approach the upgrade program(s) in ways that they currently don't consider.

Sergio Perez
04-18-2015, 09:59 AM
Great post Jarred.

You know, and i say this from a personal perspective, I live on the other side of the world. Over here (and neighbouring regions), its incredible to see the impact RED had on the film industry- both in the independent and on the "Big Budget" productions. What i find even more interesting is, all this started from this unique spirit of Red- about communication. through communication and word of mouth, this whole "movement" was created.

I know for a fact (hear it often) many people, from the High End, Big Production world, don't like REDUSER. They joke about it, joke about it being a place of apologists, or "propaganda". I know where Reduser comes from - pointing at you Jarred- and one cannot, I think disassociate what Red cameras currently are, what the product is without tying it also to the genius of having this communication tool with costumers. This I say, obviously without taking anything from the Geniuses that engineer these cameras.

Right now there are, over the World, users , some premium, High End ones, who Beta test your equipment and give you feedback on the field in various levels of production. This is probably what the competition also does. However, over here, you're listening to the voice of those that are normally not heard. Here, a potential costumer, a young independent filmmaker, a creative artist, an experienced DOP can come to understand, share, question what Red is all about- from anywhere in the world. Reduser, to me, is an integral part to the essence of what RED DIGITAL CINEMA is. A Red camera, a tool of communication, developed through communication.

The overwhelming Response you guys and girls at Red received from the launch of the Weapon reflects the passion, commitment as well as the concerns of all those that are in the RED train, or wanting to join. Those that come here, those that spend time reading posts on an online forum are also out there, using Red cameras with passion, developing unique, spectacular, relevant, and important content. By saying you are listening and committed to this user base- which in its big majority is consisting of the Independents (certainly PJ, James Cameron, Dickens, the other "Top men and women" don't post here, they call you guys, or Arri, or Sony!) is another vote of confidence for us to upgrade.

Having said all this, as an Epic Dragon owner and "Independent", I would like to say that you confirming the Magnesium Body can be upgraded to Vista Vision- by upgrading internals- was the last needed piece of the puzzle to decide on upgrading. I think this is what most of us needed to know. We didn't want our Magnesium brains to not be able to upgrade to 8K CF Weapon Dragon integrals.

We are all in this together. May they be filmmakers who are working in the next Blockbuster , the next "Memento", the next Sundance sensation, to the ones doing cake movies, obscure art films or Regional commercials. All RED Camera users are committed and passionate to produce the best content possible.

Where else do you see users giving names to their cameras? Here's the first ever work I did with the EPIC X Lilau (now Dragon). No pay. Just a test/ short, a tribute and above all the commitment of what I wanted to do with it.

https://vimeo.com/38020250

That was in 2012. Now, this camera has produced many short films, TV Commercials, and has helped to put one very very important event for me on the big motorsport stage, that it truly deserved:

https://vimeo.com/112166475

The way I express myself is directly connected to the "brush" I use and the "colours" and "canvas" it allows me to explore. It gives me the freedom to use, with less and less limitations, my creativity. I don't have much return of investment through what I do. Its hard to explain, but I sincerely hope to be able to continue this unique partnership, as a costumer, as a Reduser, with these boundaries pushing geniuses at RED.

Keep rocking!

Wim Verbeek
04-18-2015, 12:51 PM
Love this post Jarred!

- Following RED since 2006
- Rented RedOne and didn't ever want to shoot with another camera. R3d RedCode is awesome!
- Bought Scarlet-X in 2012, perfect for my corporate needs.
- Waiting for my Dragon upgrade just now. Couldn't be happier :laugh:
- RED changed my professional life.
- Thanks for this.

Tehben Dean
04-18-2015, 01:31 PM
I'm glad for this, but also feel a little bit squeezed. I haven't upgraded my Scarlet to Dragon, or Epic, and don't know how much I should try to squeeze my bank account to do so before the upgrade path shuts down this summer. Without knowing what the future holds for this line (That is, the Scarlet equivalent of Weapon), I'm in a little bit of a bind. Do I kill myself to upgrade now on faith that I'll want the next upgrade too?

I'm not asking for a price cut, or any change of plans. Just wanted to point out that it's a rough decision to make when we specifically lack some information.

Don't' sell any organs to do the upgrade. In a few years when you need a new camera you can buy a new camera. Spending $12k to stay in the upgrade path so you can spend another $12k+ to get the next upgrade is no different then waiting and spending the $24k+ later to buy a new/er camera.

If your Scarlet MX is working for you now then keep shooting with it. It's not like it's gotten any worse then it was yesterday, It's still a great camera.

Brian Boyer
04-18-2015, 01:48 PM
This obviously does not mean that the next sensor will fit in an Epic or Scarlet body though like some people are implying... that is taking the question and answer out of context, and the electronics obviously would need to be upgraded for a new sensor, but there will be an upgrade path regardless, no matter where you are in the Dragon family. Considering that most likely that will be in the Weapon form factor, it obviously will be most affordable to be on Weapon when that time comes.

Okay, I did miss this post. I'll take the hit for misunderstanding what Jarred said but, in all fairness, his first answer was not nearly this clear.

If the answer to "Will Scarlet Dragon be eligible for a sensor upgrade in one way or another?" is "Yes, through Weapon.", then it was a strange question (IMO) because I can upgrade to Weapon from Scarlet Dragon today. There's no reason to think that wouldn't be true when a new sensor is available.

I guess I didn't think the question was asked in the spirit of getting an answer the asker already presumably knew.

I'm not usually one to jump to conclusions on this forum but there was room for interpretation based on the somewhat odd way Jarred phrased the answer to an odd (IMO) question. Come to think of it, his first post in this thread is worded kinda weird, given the quote above.

Maybe it would help to add this info to the first post, lest people still get the wrong idea. Without it, I can see people assuming "a future for Scarlet Dragon" means a new sensor, when it may just mean unlocked or enhanced features or something else entirely.

Scott Crawley
04-18-2015, 09:01 PM
I saw the same postings and i appreciate what Jarred did. It was the right step and hopefully helps people to calm down a bit.

What i think is, that there were some emotional reactions from the user-base, partly understandable, but mostly just filled with assumptions and "reading between the lines". History should tell us enough about RED to have more faith. In fact, there was no REAL reason to be disappointed or even start thinking about RED dropping the indie-market. If you had followed Jarred's posts in the past, everyone should know that RED still loves Scarlet and doesn't want to get rid of the user-base.

Then there was the hint about the Dragon-upgrade. Do you really think Jarred personally would have mislead Scarlet-owners into a upgrade to a EOL-camera without telling us it will be the final incarnation? He would have communicated it differently.

So i feel sorry for Jarred and RED, because i think this sort of feedback might have been a bad surprise for them.

Ah, I see. I think it will play out as just a little bump in the road... A potential problem averted. But it seems to be resonating. This really was an important statement on Jarred's part I think.

Do I think Jarred intentionally mislead anyone? Not at all. In fact these ideas I was trying to help give voice to were not my own for the most part. Hoarding MX parts though... That cheeky bit was mine. ;-)

Jeffrey Loewe
04-18-2015, 09:39 PM
If it was actually $12k in cash I would be less contemplative. But there would still be some pretty big unknowns. I would lose my sidehandle which never leaves my camera and instead have the sidekick which I get a lot of people want and a lot of people hate the Sidehandle, but I've always been a fan. And if I move to XL without a side handle I'll only have 90 minutes of power without a REDVolt to failover to or the option of shooting for 30 minutes in an extremely lightweight handheld configuration. I love the ports all on the right with the Base Expander... but I'm already getting really excited about tethering which I would lose. I love the toolless attachment of the 7" but when I put it on a Noga it now requires a large bulk adapter. The image quality will be nearly identical. It looks like compression can be reduced by 10%. So ultimately I would say Epic vs Weapon for my configuration is kind of 1 step forward one step back on form factor when I look at it really closely. To me it feels more like a crossgrade than an upgrade. It would be like moving from FCP-7 to FCP-X when FCP-X was launched. But it's reassuring to hear that the DSMC Epic/Scarlet customers aren't going to be treated like FCP-7 customers. I look forward to hearing about what those options will be going forward for Epic Dragon owners.

I agree with a lot of this actually.

If the upgrade was really only $12K i'd probably make the jump. I think the difficult part for me is going to be having to get new media, make a decision on whether to stick with V-Mount or make the switch to XL's.

Being completely honest the RV XL's make ALOT of sense for the type of work I do and the size, but that elevates the cost along with media (keeping in mind I don't really know the overall trade in program for SSD's.

I'm also with Gavin on the side handle. I love it and feel like the majority of those I talked to at NAB love it.

It's exciting that the support for the current DSMC platform is still in place.

Curious how possible it is to get an idea of what the future might look like for the MG body as far as upgrades might look like? I'm aware of the horsepower in the Carbon fiber separating it from the pack entirely. But is there some possibility the MG sees an 8K type upgrade without having to jump into the Carbon Fiber Weapon? Obviously with less power in terms of frame rates to protect the Carbon Fiber model, this could also potentially keep the cost a bit lower in terms of the sensor upgrade. Or is that a see with time kind of scenario?

Stacey Spears
04-18-2015, 09:51 PM
I'm also with Gavin on the side handle. I love it and feel like the majority of those I talked to at NAB love it.

Send your feedback to Element Technica ASAP. I spoke to them about it at NAB. They said it would have a record start /stop button. Let them know what features you use on the current side handle. e.g. I mentioned the rocker switch for motion mound ND, at least three buttons (edge focus, 1:1 and exposure for me) The dpad to navigate menus when not using a touch screen, such as only using an EVF.


But is there some possibility the MG sees an 8K type upgrade without having to jump into the Carbon Fiber Weapon? Obviously with less power in terms of frame rates to protect the Carbon Fiber model, this could also potentially keep the cost a bit lower in terms of the sensor upgrade.

Jarred posted (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?130606-Announcing-WEAPON-DRAGON-6k-Magnesium&p=1499011&highlight=#post1499011) that buying CF w/ 8k now will be cheaper than upgrading MG to 8k later. We know sensor goes from $10k to $20k shortly. So It may cost at least $20k. Then if CF is $15k more than MG, for the required horse power, then maybe MG 6k to MG 8k is going to cost at least $35k. I am, of course, pulling that number out of my ass.


When the 8K dragon sensor is ready, you will be able to keep the MG body and just upgrade the Boards and the Sensor to get the full 8K Carbon performance. It will cost more of course than going straight to 8K Carbon right now, but the performance will be the same and 6K and 8K will be the distinction, not just the material.

Scott Crawley
04-18-2015, 09:57 PM
I mentioned the rocker switch for motion mound ND, at least three buttons (edge focus, 1:1 and exposure for me)

Exactly! But I use the rocker for iris instead (No MM here.). I also like toggle focus modes on a button and assign A&B focus points each to a button.

Love that side handle for bobble free quick adjustments.

Jeffrey Loewe
04-18-2015, 10:04 PM
Send your feedback to Element Technica ASAP. I spoke to them about it at NAB. They said it would have a record start /stop button. Let them know what features you use on the current side handle. e.g. I mentioned the rocker switch for motion mound ND, at least three buttons (edge focus, 1:1 and exposure for me) The dpad to navigate menus when not using a touch screen, such as only using an EVF.


I recall Jarred posting that buying CF w/ 8k now will be cheaper than upgrading MG to 8k later. We know sensor goes from 10k to 20k shortly. So It will cost at least 20k. Then if CF is $15k more than MG, for the required horse power, then maybe MG to CF 8k is going to cost $35k. I am, of course, pulling that out of my ass.

Stacey, Will do.

Currently there are to many buttons, and often have to turn off quite a few of them. But keeping the RV would be awesome.

And thanks for the answer on the upgrade. Curious if there might be a potentially cheaper option? Maybe less frame rates etc. If not thats totally understandable, maybe in the next go around once things move forward costs will come down a bit.

Edit: just saw Stacey's updated post, thanks for finding that Stacey!

Stacey Spears
04-18-2015, 10:11 PM
I guess, more of what i'm asking is if there might be a cheaper upgrade option to keep the MG body instead of having to go all in on the CF Camera.... but there will be a point when 8K is within reach for all of us

If anyone knows, that would be RED. In another post, Jarred mentioned that the cost difference between CF and MG was less about material and more about processing power.

In time, yields go up and cost goes down. How much time and cost is an unknown. By the time the yields are great, they could be on the next gen sensor, where yields are poor again. :) Again, just a guess. No doubt that when the next gen sensor is announced, someone will have just upgraded to the current gen 8k sensor and will be upset because they were not told that the next gen sensor was coming. :) 8k upgrades starting at the end of the year put them close to the next NAB.

Jesse Conti
04-18-2015, 10:13 PM
The Scarlet-D is a powerful "weapon" in itself, that is a step up from an Epic MX in many ways and it will have its day. I can't wait to hear what's in store down the road. Indie guys should rejoice in the fact that we have a fantastic tool at an affordable price with options.

Eric Santiago
04-19-2015, 01:27 AM
The Scarlet-D is a powerful "weapon" in itself, that is a step up from an Epic MX in many ways and it will have its day. I can't wait to hear what's in store down the road. Indie guys should rejoice in the fact that we have a fantastic tool at an affordable price with options.


I feel that way as well but with my Scarlet- MX :)

Detlev Eller
04-19-2015, 03:41 AM
The Scarlet-D is a powerful "weapon" in itself, that is a step up from an Epic MX in many ways and it will have its day. I can't wait to hear what's in store down the road. Indie guys should rejoice in the fact that we have a fantastic tool at an affordable price with options.

True, the Scarlet Concept is totally underrated. It´s powerful.

In my view, Scarlet Dragons stand well on their own and are also great extensions to the Epic Dragon for multi cam coverage ...
working in red raw is priceless, grabbing 48 fps @5K WS on the B/C cams is pretty cool as well ... love 'em ... ;-)

Although i do not want to miss shooting the Monochrome and the Epic Dragon ... a Scarlet Dragon is really all one needs to make a film in red raw land ... :-)

Just did "the hustle" to add some minimal config Scarlet-D´s to the setup for better coverage of my little film and love, love, love it!

Of course i´m juicy for 8K Vista Vision plates and feel my blood boiling for "the hustle" all over again ... not easy, but fun nevertheless!
That is the creative ride - If we set our mind on something, it´ll find a way to make it work.

All has it´s place.

Detlev

Christian Edwards
04-19-2015, 03:54 AM
Scarlet D is the best camera on the market , Cant wait to get one :)

Bruce Allen
04-19-2015, 04:10 AM
I do hope that RED update their indie lineup sooner rather than later.

Back in 2008, RED's public plan was $9750 for a FF35 brain, to be released in 2009.

I know that everything was and is subject to change... but it's a bit sad that 6 years later, in 2015, the affordable FF35 DSMCs are made by Sony (A7s) and Canon (5DC), and they're both due for replacement models soon!

At this rate, it's possible we'll get an 8K FF35 Sony DSLR and an 8K FF35 Blackmagic Ursa before we get an affordable FF35 or higher product from RED.

This is fine and dandy (RED don't HAVE to make an indie cam, they can do whatever they want!) - but it does seem that the focus of the company has changed.

I don't know any friends right now buying $20K Scarlet Dragons. Plenty of folks I know are getting Ursa Minis. At $5K for 60fps 4.6K RAW, with low compression rates to non-proprietary media, with XLRs and phantom power and a 1080p LCD, who can blame them? Unless the color science sucks of course... but the original BM cam was OK and this one is supposed to have improved color filters so we'll see!

Is it too much to hope for a feisty RED response in 2016?

And for the record, I ordered an Ursa Mini. I will happily do some tests for the community of it vs the Dragon (STH of course!), the good old F35, the Amira, FS7, A7s, etc and promise to be honest as always.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Brian Boyer
04-19-2015, 05:54 AM
Back in 2008, RED's public plan was $9750 for a FF35 brain, to be released in 2009.

I know that everything was and is subject to change...

I thought I'd be a rock star by 2009 (seriously) but, like RED, I may have been overly optimistic.



...but it's a bit sad that 6 years later, in 2015, the affordable FF35 DSMCs are made by Sony (A7s) and Canon (5DC), and they're both due for replacement models soon!

At this rate, it's possible we'll get an 8K FF35 Sony DSLR and an 8K FF35 Blackmagic Ursa before we get an affordable FF35 or higher product from RED.

I wasn't aware the A7s does FF35 video. I'm pretty sure the 1DC does it by line skipping, which is a RED no-no. Either way, the replacements certainly won't have the frame rates VV will.



This is fine and dandy (RED don't HAVE to make an indie cam, they can do whatever they want!) - but it does seem that the focus of the company has changed.

Well, there's indie and then there's low-budget. They need not mean the same thing, and often don't. The Scarlet Dragon falls within many indie film budgets. It's a bit pricey for low-to-no-budget projects.

A brand new Scarlet Dragon is more camera than the original R1 and less money. The Mg Weapon costs as much as the Epic-M MX when it was new. The CF Weapon is the same price as the CF Epic Dragon, with more horsepower.

I'm not seeing the shift in focus you refer to, other than the current offerings don't shape up to RED's pie-in-the-sky aspirations of the DSMC concept before the reality of actually producing it came into play, especially considering the rest of the market.

That, and I think it's really hard for them not to push the envelope. That poses a problem for <$10K cameras. $5K cameras are probably out of the question unless they develop a separate sensor for them or go the off-the-shelf route, like BMD.

Perhaps you could elaborate?



I don't know any friends right now buying $20K Scarlet Dragons. Plenty of folks I know are getting Ursa Minis. At $5K for 60fps 4.6K RAW, with low compression rates to non-proprietary media, with XLRs and phantom power and a 1080p LCD, who can blame them? Unless the color science sucks of course... but the original BM cam was OK and this one is supposed to have improved color filters so we'll see!

I constantly re-evaluate the camera market to see if anyone has caught up to RED at a more attractive price point. For my money, all of BMD's cameras have had something about them I thought was a deal breaker in terms of replacing my Scarlet MX with one, let alone the Scarlet Dragon.

The URSA Mini is the first one (on paper) that looks like it could give the Scarlet Dragon a run for its money.



Is it too much to hope for a feisty RED response in 2016?

Despite my previous comments, I'd certainly be on-board for this.



And for the record, I ordered an Ursa Mini. I will happily do some tests for the community of it vs the Dragon (STH of course!), the good old F35, the Amira, FS7, A7s, etc and promise to be honest as always.

According to several publicly available tests and ones I've done myself, when exposed for middle gray at ISO800, Dragon (w/STH) is capable of roughly 7 1/3 stops of DR above middle gray. That's Alexa territory, but at 5K or 6K, depending on the model. Aside from great color, I'm a firm believer that this is where the refinement in an image is the most noticeable.

If extreme low light performance were the determining factor, certain other cameras would rule the roost, but they don't. If that type of highlight latitude were easy to accomplish, everyone would be doing it.

The C300 MKII claims 6.3 above middle gray, max. Other cameras are getting that or 6.5. These are nothing to sneeze at but I don't know that I'd go backwards on highlight performance when I feel like it's crucial to imparting images with that extra something special.

Perhaps you can test the overexposure latitude of the URSA Mini against Dragon and see if it can achieve 7 or more stops at ISO800. If it's capable of that, it's worth taking a serious look at. Otherwise, I think I'll stick with Scarlet Dragon.

Bruce Allen
04-19-2015, 06:34 AM
I agree for sure, Brian.



I wasn't aware the A7s does FF35 video.

Yup! I just used it as B-camera on a 7-day shoot: FF35 out to a Shogun or Odyssey straight to 4K ProResHQ. Pretty good although the color and latitude were not up to the good ol' F35.

I have the same tastes as you: I like latitude and color foremost!

For that last shoot, we did consider Amira and RED. After side-by-side tests with the F35, Amira didn't seem to be worth the money for this project, though.

RE: RED... the DP didn't particularly like the skin tones of previous RED cameras. I agreed with him that anything MX was completely out. I like STH but it would have been a battle that I as director had no interest in fighting. Why impose something on the DP? Especially since even if I fought for it, we'd still have no global shutter, a less immediate workflow, more weird audio issues (loud fan, sucky audio), etc. And it'd still be more expensive per day.

I promise to do a good latitude and color test of all of the current cams when the new BM sensor comes out. Especially since 8K Weapon Dragon will probably be pretty close to current Dragon. We could even scale down a portion of the frame to mimic how the 8K scale down will decrease noise floor... although that wouldn't account for any Weapon improvements in per-pixel noise floor, it should give us a good idea.

The other thing I do worry about is that I have generally found that RED does a little worse in real life than it does in scientific tests because of the REDCODE compression. We did some high speed 6K Epic shots with a high detail scene (a house with shattering windows and stuff flying out of it at the Disney Ranch, with foliage, etc around it) and... ouch, you could really see the compression artifacts. They were more than we expected and did limit our ability to punch in somewhat. I guess I just need to do better tests!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Steve Sherrick
04-19-2015, 07:23 AM
Bruce, the problem with Blackmagic is their QC or lack thereof. When their products work as expected, they are fine. Hopefully this will get better with the 4.6K cameras. And hopefully they can deliver them on time. Tech moves so fast now that long delays lead to unhappy customers (BMD not alone in that regard). I own a Pocket and several other products from them. So I'm not just taking cheap shots. It's based on experience. But I also acknowledge they are new to the camera game and probably deserve some time to figure things out, same way RED did.

Shane Peel
04-19-2015, 07:25 AM
I feel like alot of our Scarlet customers and the indie shooters out there are having some separation anxiety looking at the price point of Weapon and a few people are concerned we have forgotten about the "little guys".

Dont worry we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end.

Truth be told the Scarlet Dragon is anything but low end... It is actually a better camera than almost every high end camera out there if you actually compare the specs. And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near.

But Weapon isn't in Scarlet territory.. it never was intended to be a direct jump for most Scarlet owners. Remember, Weapon sits above Epic. And for the fortunate Scarlet owners that can do the jump.... we give you the option.

The requests for a Weapon to to have the price of a Scarlet is an unreasonable expectation. For Weapon we had to invent alot of new technology to make it possible. Remember we design our own ASICS, Sensors, Mechanicals etc. And that is not cheap. It is easy to just take machine vision sensors and off the shelf FPGAs and make an inexpensive camera. But they usually fall short. That of course getting better as the years go on... But so are we.

I believe it is some existing Epic customers that are in a position of contemplation. Part of that is from the confusion of the credits and options and some don't realize that we are giving you more than $10k off in credits or accessories, plus the value of your trade-in. You are actually paying somewhere around $12k all things considered to do the upgrade to MG Weapon depending on what you are going from. And that is a killer deal.

The Weapon fills a hole for the best of the best. It really is incredible. Even if you take away the 8K sensor, the improvements we have made to the form factor, the internal processing, ProRes, etc.. is a huge achievement. Our engineers solved alot of "impossibles" along the way. the 3rd party module support is finally going to make use of the modular vision. The Weapon has done extremely well this week with the customers it was made for. Wouldn't change anything about it.

And yes Mark that was a great analogy. We probably do spoil our customers. But our customers also spoil us...

Times change. Red delivered on the dreams of many with the Scarlet and Epic range and the plain simple truth of the fact that they deliver incredible value due to the quality of the image they produce for the cost of the unit is obvious. Red is still delivering on dreams but they are a little harder to obtain for the many. If you step back and take a wide look a correction like this had to happen. If you got on the train and play the upgrade game you are scoring right now and will into the future but make no mistake about it the Red Weapon is NOT a camera for the common garden variety indie film maker. Weapon 8K VV won't be on many small indie films I don't reckon but I bet it is on EVERY big production. Amazing camera and an impressive play from the once little guys at Red. If I could upgrade to a Weapon from my less than 2 year old camera and accessories for even close to 12 K I'd do it in a heartbeat but that is simply not the case. I'm not complaining I'm over the moon with my camera but bummed and disapointed that I can't keep the dream alive. I would be a prime canidate to become another companies customer (like so many Canon shooters who bailed to Nikon because of a couple average models) but the fact is my Epic is still … well … Epic and the energy spent lusting for tech is gonna go into my film … for the moment!

Steve Sherrick
04-19-2015, 07:27 AM
Also, has BMD said how they are handling IR? As far as I can tell there's no OLPF and no IR filter. I know their stance on OLPF but still curious about IR

Steve Sherrick
04-19-2015, 07:31 AM
The other thing I do worry about is that I have generally found that RED does a little worse in real life than it does in scientific tests because of the REDCODE compression. We did some high speed 6K Epic shots with a high detail scene (a house with shattering windows and stuff flying out of it at the Disney Ranch, with foliage, etc around it) and... ouch, you could really see the compression artifacts. They were more than we expected and did limit our ability to punch in somewhat. I guess I just need to do better tests!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com (http://www.boacinema.com)
Bruce, what compression ratios were you using?

Bruce Allen
04-19-2015, 07:47 AM
Bruce, what compression ratios were you using?

Not sure. They did use the lowest compression rate available with the card we had (I don't think they had a fancy red one) at 6K resolution, max fps.

I was a little shocked. Which is why I do like BM's approach of only going to 4:1 at the most. I must admit my interest in the Scarlet went down considerably too because from reading the forums you'd think that the lower data rates of Scarlet weren't a big issue. Maybe I just hit a particularly bad case! Anyway...


Bruce, the problem with Blackmagic is their QC or lack thereof. When their products work as expected, they are fine. Hopefully this will get better with the 4.6K cameras. And hopefully they can deliver them on time. Tech moves so fast now that long delays lead to unhappy customers (BMD not alone in that regard). I own a Pocket and several other products from them. So I'm not just taking cheap shots. It's based on experience. But I also acknowledge they are new to the camera game and probably deserve some time to figure things out, same way RED did.

I agree! BTW, what sort of QC issues would you be worried about with the BM 4.6K? I'm guessing this is their 4th or so go at a camera body design so they should be starting to figure things out by now. And the sensor seems to be an evolution of their original camera's sensor, which worked reasonably well (black sun notwithstanding).

I am able to accept a few rough edges though - or else I'd just get an FS7 or pair a used FS700 with my Odyssey.

This all brings me back to 2007 - remember when we had the original REDCINE and I was BEGGING RED and Assimilate to give us just ONE layer of secondary color correction in REDCINE so that we could fix some of the original Mysterium's color issues easily?

Fast-forward eight years, and you get the whole DaVinci Resolve with a 4.6K raw global shutter cam. Hahaha!


Also, has BMD said how they are handling IR? As far as I can tell there's no OLPF and no IR filter. I know their stance on OLPF but still curious about IR

I suspect that I'll want to have an IR-cut filter permanently living on the cam. But it's also possible that they tweaked stuff compared to the original sensor. Promise to test that too!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Meryem Ersoz
04-19-2015, 07:48 AM
Here is a suggestion for RED -

start a RED bank, of sorts. so that no initial investor is EVER is off the upgrade path. you could allow your users who have already bought into your systems at all levels, from lowest to highest, to save money to a RED account, perhaps allowing them to accrue premiums, not in the form of interest, but in the form of accessories - e.g. when you hit the $5K savings mark, earn extra cables or small widgets, add $10K to your account, earn an extra media card - something like that. I can't imagine how the details would play out, but you get the idea.

RED can earn interest from the capital invested, keep ALL users on the upgrade path, and your users won't have to throw down huge sums all at once, while users can be earning premiums for keeping their money invested at RED over time. something like this might have kept my SCARLET MX on the Dragon path. as it stands, I had to let Scarlet go... I just could not make financial (or psychological) sense of paying $9500 to upgrade a camera which I paid $9750 for in the first place. That, and the fact that I would have a total investment of $19,250 sunk into an older body camera which is now available new, off the shelf for $14K.

These numbers simply don't add up and are knocking SCARLET users off the path on the low end.

But I think RED would agree that it is in its own interest to find ways to keep users on the upgrade path (and happy), while not giving away the farm to do it. A long-term, slow growth investment program would be a good way to make this happen. I bet you could build workable savings/credit models which could even pull along users of RED ONEs back into the upgrade path, as their successes become your successes. This would truly be Obsolescence Obsolete. The other advantage to something like this would be that it could help curtail the deflationary spiral which hits the market every time a newer model is announced, because there would be incentives to hold, rather than dump, the model you currently own, with an eye towards earning your way towards the upgrade, rather than feeling shut out of it.

you could calll it RED CRED.

Elsie N
04-19-2015, 08:07 AM
Here is a suggestion for RED -

start a RED bank, of sorts. so that no initial investor is EVER is off the upgrade path. you could allow your users who have already bought into your systems at all levels, from lowest to highest, to save money to a RED account, perhaps allowing them to accrue premiums, not in the form of interest, but in the form of accessories - e.g. when you hit the $5K savings mark, earn extra cables or small widgets, add $10K to your account, earn an extra media card - something like that. I can't imagine how the details would play out, but you get the idea.

RED can earn interest from the capital invested, keep ALL users on the upgrade path, and your users won't have to throw down huge sums all at once, while users can be earning premiums for keeping their money invested at RED over time. something like this might have kept my SCARLET MX on the Dragon path. as it stands, I had to let Scarlet go... I just could not make financial (or psychological) sense of paying $9500 to upgrade a camera which I paid $9750 for in the first place. That, and the fact that I would have a total investment of $19,250 sunk into an older body camera which is now available new, off the shelf for $14K.

These numbers simply don't add up and are knocking SCARLET users off the path on the low end.

But I think RED would agree that it is in its own interest to find ways to keep users on the upgrade path (and happy), while not giving away the farm to do it. A long-term, slow growth investment program would be a good way to make this happen. I bet you could build workable savings/credit models which could even pull along users of RED ONEs back into the upgrade path, as their successes become your successes. This would truly be Obsolescence Obsolete. The other advantage to something like this would be that it could help curtail the deflationary spiral which hits the market every time a newer model is announced, because there would be incentives to hold, rather than dump, the model you currently own, with an eye towards earning your way towards the upgrade, rather than feeling shut out of it.

you could calll it RED CRED.

Interesting concept but one most Scarlet owners probably would consider foreign, IMO. That is, if you are owning a Scarlet to shoot movies, a savings account is a puzzling concept.

On the other hand, an exclusive right to trade-in for or buy outright the BT Dragons that will be exchanged for Weapons, well... that's more tangible and would be a known carrot to save for.

Michael Tiemann
04-19-2015, 09:09 AM
So it looks like I have until midnight tonight, maybe tomorrow, before the NAB special options turn into a pumpkin. Where to begin...

I have two DRAGONs, an EPIC-M and a SCARLET-X. My relationships with both cameras have been mixed. I was hoping that WEAPON would give me an upgrade path to leave behind what I don't like about the current cameras and maybe get even happier about what I already do like. When I read the WEAPON specs and features, I was excited, until I saw the pricing, which I simply could not wrap my mind around (because I was expecting WEAPON to be a replacing body upgrade, not an entirely new product category). What RED has (finally) made clear is that WEAPON will co-exist with EPIC DRAGON, not replace it. But it leaves me feeling caught in the middle:

My current DRAGONs:

* Are louder than they should be for a recording studio environment. I would pay a few thousand dollars each to drop their fan noise by 6dB-10dB
* The PRO IO module is even worse--half the time I have to take it off because it is too loud. (The ability to resample 96K AES -> 48K is a nice feature, however)
* Don't play well with my Fujinon cabrio lenses (they neither have the power to zoom nor the power to read metadata)
* Will record HDMI or SDI out to blackmagic boxes, so I can capture 2K pro-res when needed (albeit without LUTs)
* Don't have an upgrade path to VV (which means my dreams end at 6K)

Moreover, I didn't fully realize how limited the SCARLET was compared to EPIC when it comes to resolution and REDCODE options. Of course I knew that I was downgrading from 6K 24fps to 5K 24fps, but I didn't realize I was losing the half-K resolution settings, nor did I realize just how quickly one had to jump to high compression to shoot higher frame rates. And because the SCARLET-X DRAGON is actually louder that the EPIC-M DRAGON, I'm really looking at upgrading it sonner rather than later. Unfortunately, because of its low residual value (understandable because it's starting from a lower cost basis) and because of the much higher cost base of WEAPON, the trade from SCARLET-X to WEAPON is such that I'm inclined to keep the SCARLET-X as a somewhat badly behaved, but nevertheless potent B-camera for those times when I can work around its limitations.

So what of the EPIC-M? With all the confusion about the discounts, rebates, prices, etc., all the focus shifted from "What can the Weapon do?" to "what's the cost?" Even by the end of NAB, I was very unclear on whether the WEAPON would deliver $17,000 worth of upgrade value to me. (Or $30,000 plus if looking at the *real* path to the future, WEAPON CF.) And here's where my dilemma really comes into focus: if I were going to spend $17K to make the body fit my work environment better, it would have to be the SCARLET-X not the EPIC-M that I'd be upgrading. And if I were to splurge and spend $30K on an upgrade, it would be to fully bring the SCARLET up to scratch. Which is all to say that for me, WEAPON looks like a bridge too far.

RED is making the pivot from being a disruptor to being a leader. A disruptor gives you 4x the performance for 1/10th the cost. A leader gives to 2x the performance of anybody else, but if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Eric Santiago
04-19-2015, 09:31 AM
...I was excited, until I saw the pricing, which I simply could not wrap my mind around (because I was expecting WEAPON to be a replacing body upgrade, not an entirely new product category)...

I didnt predict this but being a current Scarlet-MX owner this helps me feel good about my decision to wait :)

Meryem Ersoz
04-19-2015, 09:51 AM
Interesting concept but one most Scarlet owners probably would consider foreign, IMO. That is, if you are owning a Scarlet to shoot movies, a savings account is a puzzling concept.

On the other hand, an exclusive right to trade-in for or buy outright the BT Dragons that will be exchanged for Weapons, well... that's more tangible and would be a known carrot to save for.

I think you are wrong. I think if the incentives are tiered in an attractive way, that people would drop their nickels and dimes into a RED account - with an eye towards a longer period of time to purchase, rather than having to cough up large sums in a short time period.

This type of program would also benefit multiple camera owners. Not everyone who owns a SCARLET is in the poorhouse, that is a pure mischaracterization. It may be their second cam, as in my case, or it may just be that all these drop-dead deadlines are too much of a financial stretch in too short of a timeframe, to make sense to pull the trigger (probably more users in that category). Either way, a parallel program which is a marathon, not a sprint, is a good idea and would keep more users on the path.

This would let users ROI their investments prior to purchase. Makes good business sense for users, if RED could come up with something that also works for RED.

Shawn Nelson
04-19-2015, 09:53 AM
$11k to upgrade? I have a Dragon, which still feels like I just got it, and doing quick math I find that I'll need to spend $22,500 just to get a bare bones Weapon with 5x 240gb cards and the base extender. That would presume using my existing monitor, batteries and more. And since some of those would have to be changed, I think $25k is really the absolute minimum. $25k to keep the exact same chip. If it was $11k I could figure that out, I'm not sure I'll be able to find $25k to keep this up on the same sensor. Time will tell. Meanwhile I'm loving my Dragon.

Elsie N
04-19-2015, 10:13 AM
I think you are wrong. I think if the incentives are tiered in an attractive way, that people would drop their nickels and dimes into a RED account - with an eye towards a longer period of time to purchase, rather than having to cough up large sums in a short time period.

This type of program would also benefit multiple camera owners. Not everyone who owns a SCARLET is in the poorhouse, that is a pure mischaracterization. It may be their second cam, as in my case, or it may just be that all these drop-dead deadlines are too much of a financial stretch in too short of a timeframe, to make sense to pull the trigger (probably more users in that category). Either way, a parallel program which is a marathon, not a sprint, is a good idea and would keep more users on the path.

This would let users ROI their investments prior to purchase. Makes good business sense for users, if RED could come up with something that also works for RED.

I prefer to think we are both right. '-) Don't remember many young successful movie-makers referring to their 1/2 percenter savings account being the source of their success... more like maxing out their credit cards enabled them to get where they are.

As I said, not a bad idea for those who need a nanny banker but that also means more work for RED which could mean putting on more help which could require charging more for future upgrades.

This is my opinion, but RED went from being a simple 4k concept company to a much more complex 4, 5, 6, 8k company. Still more layers of complexity aren't what's needed, I think.

As Al Davis, the departed owner of the Oakland Raiders might have said...Keep it quantum, Baby.

Brian Pascale
04-19-2015, 10:23 AM
I took the plunge and upgraded to Dragon Scarlet, glad to hear there will be more upgrade options in the future. The deciding factor for me was Jarred's giving us a heads up to do it and lowering the price back down. I do believe that Red caring about the its customer is more than PR.

The Scarlet MX allowed me to work quickly when shooting my webseries and have it look great. Still hasn't made money for me, hopefully I will use my Scarlet Dragon more when I get it. But seems to be the best option for achieving what my eye sees.

Shawn Nelson
04-19-2015, 11:02 AM
$11k to upgrade? I have a Dragon, which still feels like I just got it, and doing quick math I find that I'll need to spend $22,500 just to get a bare bones Weapon with 5x 240gb cards and the base extender. That would presume using my existing monitor, batteries and more. And since some of those would have to be changed, I think $25k is really the absolute minimum. $25k to keep the exact same chip. If it was $11k I could figure that out, I'm not sure I'll be able to find $25k to keep this up on the same sensor. Time will tell. Meanwhile I'm loving my Dragon.

Shoot. Someone just pointed out to me that Weapon CF is really the Dragon upgrade path and that the magnesium has lesser specs. For me to upgrade to the Weapon CF would take $40k after tradein values. I think what I need to do is get another year or so use out of my Dragon then hope that later Red does an upgrade path from EpicX Dragon straight to the next gen sensor.

Akin A
04-19-2015, 11:15 AM
Moreover, I didn't fully realize how limited the SCARLET was compared to EPIC when it comes to resolution and REDCODE options. Of course I knew that I was downgrading from 6K 24fps to 5K 24fps, but I didn't realize I was losing the half-K resolution settings, nor did I realize just how quickly one had to jump to high compression to shoot higher frame rates. And because the SCARLET-X DRAGON is actually louder that the EPIC-M DRAGON, I'm really looking at upgrading it sonner rather than later. Unfortunately, because of its low residual value (understandable because it's starting from a lower cost basis) and because of the much higher cost base of WEAPON, the trade from SCARLET-X to WEAPON is such that I'm inclined to keep the SCARLET-X as a somewhat badly behaved, but nevertheless potent B-camera for those times when I can work around its limitations.


Michael, I'm interested in knowing more about your experience using Epic Dragon vs Scarlet Dragon. I'm leaning towards upgrading to Epic Dragon. Do you actually use the half Ks that often? I've seen the compression wedge thread, but do you see a noticeable jump in real world image quality of 6K 24fps vs 5K 24fps 7:1 downscaled to 4K? I'm sure the frame rate improvements are obvious, based on my Scarlet Dragon HFR tests. Any other thoughts?

Elsie N
04-19-2015, 11:20 AM
Shoot. Someone just pointed out to me that Weapon CF is really the Dragon upgrade path and that the magnesium has lesser specs. For me to upgrade to the Weapon CF would take $40k after tradein values. I think what I need to do is get another year or so use out of my Dragon then hope that later Red does an upgrade path from EpicX Dragon straight to the next gen sensor.

Sounds like something that could happen, for both Scarlet and Epic Dragons, since the form factor of those two cameras is larger than the Weapon form factor... meaning the internals should surely fit. That would in essence be the less-expensive Aluminum Body upgrade some were wishing for Weapon.

Of course that would come with the penalty of time to use the 8k if that is the next sensor being referred to, as I'm sure it would be well after the first ones were introduced and had a good amount of time in the field. Also it would mean not having the ease-of-use that the Weapon suggests.

I think once the dust settles from NAB and RED has a sense of what the numbers are for cash inflow and cost outlays, they can decide how to move forward in respect to new products and customer-loyalty benefits for those who could either not afford or justify the current product upgrade.

Scott Crawley
04-19-2015, 11:44 AM
As I said, not a bad idea for those who need a nanny banker...

Yeah, I was wondering how a Red Savings account would take someone who has been unable to save money and make them more successful at it and what would cause someone to think that such a thing would be of benefit.

How 'bout a generous upgrade plan? I send them all of my fives and they would use some Graeme magic to upgrade each of them to a ten dollar bill! That would be awesome!

Of course someone would complain about the graphics on the ten and insist upon twenties instead...

And that is the way they should have done it in the first place anyway, because everyone knows that twenties are so much better than tens. What were they thinking? They must have been tryin' to scam us.

Come to think about it I see no technical reasons why Red couldn't squeeze another five out of those bills... $25's!! They could make $25's! Give me a twenty-five dollar bill for every five I deposit, or I won't use their bank. Their inks suck anyway.

and if I want to make origami swans with them I have to fold it and shit.

I heard they were going to make them coins and call them Red Rounds too, the juvenile pricks. I don't want to pay with ammo. Liberals will laugh at me and the fuckin idiot gropers at the TSA will tase me when I try to buy an airline ticket and ammo falls out of my pocket. I don't need that shit.

And no, it doesn't matter that I can buy the Red Auto Loader Personal Mint and print my own money for pennies on the dollar. After I buy the fucker I'll be fresh out of pennies.

I'll buy the competitors $2 bill instead. I don't care if they cost $35. Fuck 'em

Elsie N
04-19-2015, 12:05 PM
...

How 'bout a generous upgrade plan? I send them all of my fives and they would use some Graeme magic to upgrade each of them to a ten dollar bill! That would be awesome!

....
I have no doubt he could do it... if he just had the time. '-)

Les Hillis
04-19-2015, 12:34 PM
... I'm leaning towards upgrading to Epic Dragon... I've seen the compression wedge thread, but do you see a noticeable jump in real world image quality of 6K 24fps vs 5K 24fps 7:1 downscaled to 4K?...

Hi Akin, fortunately the image-quality differences are something you can test and see for yourself using your Scarlet Dragon.

If you shoot at 4fps you can directly compare the image quality of the 5K and 6K resolutions at RC2:1 to RC8:1(and higher).

Obviously, at 4fps whatever you shoot will be sped up and you'll also have to physically move closer or further away from your subject in order to re-frame it so it looks the same when changing between 5K and 6K, but you should still be able to see what the extra 1K of resolution and lower RC compression will get you in real-world terms.

Some things to look out for in particular would be the differences between 6K@RC4:1(Epic-D 24fps max.), 5K@RC3:1(Epic-D 24fps max.) and 5K@RC8:1(Scarlet-D 24fps max.), as these are the highest quality full-sensor settings available when using the 512GB Mini-Mags to record at 24fps.

Mark T Workman
04-19-2015, 12:57 PM
So it looks like I have until midnight tonight, maybe tomorrow, before the NAB special options turn into a pumpkin. Where to begin...

I have two DRAGONs, an EPIC-M and a SCARLET-X. My relationships with both cameras have been mixed. I was hoping that WEAPON would give me an upgrade path to leave behind what I don't like about the current cameras and maybe get even happier about what I already do like. When I read the WEAPON specs and features, I was excited, until I saw the pricing, which I simply could not wrap my mind around (because I was expecting WEAPON to be a replacing body upgrade, not an entirely new product category). What RED has (finally) made clear is that WEAPON will co-exist with EPIC DRAGON, not replace it. But it leaves me feeling caught in the middle:

My current DRAGONs:

* Are louder than they should be for a recording studio environment. I would pay a few thousand dollars each to drop their fan noise by 6dB-10dB
* The PRO IO module is even worse--half the time I have to take it off because it is too loud. (The ability to resample 96K AES -> 48K is a nice feature, however)
* Don't play well with my Fujinon cabrio lenses (they neither have the power to zoom nor the power to read metadata)
* Will record HDMI or SDI out to blackmagic boxes, so I can capture 2K pro-res when needed (albeit without LUTs)
* Don't have an upgrade path to VV (which means my dreams end at 6K)

Moreover, I didn't fully realize how limited the SCARLET was compared to EPIC when it comes to resolution and REDCODE options. Of course I knew that I was downgrading from 6K 24fps to 5K 24fps, but I didn't realize I was losing the half-K resolution settings, nor did I realize just how quickly one had to jump to high compression to shoot higher frame rates. And because the SCARLET-X DRAGON is actually louder that the EPIC-M DRAGON, I'm really looking at upgrading it sonner rather than later. Unfortunately, because of its low residual value (understandable because it's starting from a lower cost basis) and because of the much higher cost base of WEAPON, the trade from SCARLET-X to WEAPON is such that I'm inclined to keep the SCARLET-X as a somewhat badly behaved, but nevertheless potent B-camera for those times when I can work around its limitations.

So what of the EPIC-M? With all the confusion about the discounts, rebates, prices, etc., all the focus shifted from "What can the Weapon do?" to "what's the cost?" Even by the end of NAB, I was very unclear on whether the WEAPON would deliver $17,000 worth of upgrade value to me. (Or $30,000 plus if looking at the *real* path to the future, WEAPON CF.) And here's where my dilemma really comes into focus: if I were going to spend $17K to make the body fit my work environment better, it would have to be the SCARLET-X not the EPIC-M that I'd be upgrading. And if I were to splurge and spend $30K on an upgrade, it would be to fully bring the SCARLET up to scratch. Which is all to say that for me, WEAPON looks like a bridge too far.

RED is making the pivot from being a disruptor to being a leader. A disruptor gives you 4x the performance for 1/10th the cost. A leader gives to 2x the performance of anybody else, but if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Michael, did you ever own the Scarlet MX and so have basis to compare it with Scarlet Dragon?

Scott Crawley
04-19-2015, 01:02 PM
I have no doubt he could do it... if he just had the time. '-)

Graeme magic does make money, doesn't it? ;-)

Akin A
04-19-2015, 01:07 PM
Hi Akin, fortunately the image-quality differences are something you can test and see for yourself using your Scarlet Dragon.
lol, thanks Les. Sometimes I forget that 6K low compression is even on Scarlet Dragon because I haven't gone that low in fps. Gonna try that to compare still frames.
I'm still curious about noticing it in a real shooting situation with motion in frame at 24fps though.

Mike Garrick
04-19-2015, 03:18 PM
Whilst not 24 fps you can shoot 12 Fps @ both 5K & 6K @ the same compression and compare.

P.s. LOL. @ Scott ......seems highly logical to me .

Michael Tiemann
04-19-2015, 03:18 PM
Michael, did you ever own the Scarlet MX and so have basis to compare it with Scarlet Dragon?

Nope. I went straight to DRAGON, and got my battle scars from that.

Michael Tiemann
04-19-2015, 03:34 PM
Michael, I'm interested in knowing more about your experience using Epic Dragon vs Scarlet Dragon. I'm leaning towards upgrading to Epic Dragon. Do you actually use the half Ks that often? I've seen the compression wedge thread, but do you see a noticeable jump in real world image quality of 6K 24fps vs 5K 24fps 7:1 downscaled to 4K? I'm sure the frame rate improvements are obvious, based on my Scarlet Dragon HFR tests. Any other thoughts?

I've decided that REDCODE 8:1 at 5K is not truly my rate-limiting step, so I don't stress about it. That said, it's a tight performance box, and if/when I want to stretch (lower compression, higher framerate, larger sensor area, etc)., I know I'm in a very tight box. EPIC has brainpower for days. The half-Ks can be helpful when stretching HFR limits w/o compromising pixels. There's a world of difference between 4K and 3K, and SCARLET offers nothing in between.

Honestly, SCARLET DRAGON is a fine camera, and reflects a sensible balance of cost/performance compromise. If you really need EPIC DRAGON, get EPIC DRAGON. Having an EPIC DRAGON, I can afford to spend less on a second camera that does very well what a second camera should do very well.

Robert Ruffo New
04-19-2015, 04:44 PM
Jarred, this is perfectly reasonable.

I find it odd how some people working in Low Budget Land feel offended by the fact that some things are too expensive for them. Where did the idea come from that you must have access to anything you want instantly, on day one of your career? How does that even make sense? Where is it written that those later on in their career do not have the right to better things on set than they do, things which as you explain are more expensive for really good reason? Do they feel that truly high end tools should no longer exist, lest these higher priced items offend their random sense of entitlement, and vaguely Marxist notion that everyone should be using the same things to shoot films?

Instead, they should be excited about later climbing ranks, and having access to even better tools later on as part of the pay off of that career climb. One more thing to look forward to.

In the meanwhile, anyone who claims they can't shoot whatever it is they want with any Red camera, past or present, really should look at their shooting skills, not blame Red.

Steve Sherrick
04-19-2015, 05:31 PM
Jarred, this is perfectly reasonable.

I find it odd how some people working in Low Budget Land feel offended by the fact that some things are too expensive for them. Where did the idea come from that you must have access to anything you want instantly, on day one of your career? How does that even make sense? Where is it written that those later on in their career do not have the right to better things on set than they do, things which as you explain are more expensive for really good reason? Do they feel that truly high end tools should no longer exist, lest these higher priced items offend their random sense of entitlement, and vaguely Marxist notion that everyone should be using the same things to shoot films?

Instead, they should be excited about later climbing ranks, and having access to even better tools later on as part of the pay off of that career climb. One more thing to look forward to.

In the meanwhile, anyone who claims they can't shoot whatever it is they want with any Red camera, past or present, really should look at their shooting skills, not blame Red.
Since I have been vocal about this subject lately, I do think it's fair to point out that I do make a distinction between those who feel entitled to have the latest and greatest for practically nothing and those who have been on the upgrade path and have now come across a challenging dilemma. I think a lot of people who have voiced their dislike for the Weapon upgrade have done so in an articulate way, and don't fit the profile of some I see on other forums who literally feel it is their right to own a camera that has top of the line features for under $1000. That is just not realistic. There are literally dozens of lenses I want to own right now. I can't justify the cost to get them all, but I certainly want them. Supply and demand has driven up the prices of lenses.

With time to reflect on the events of the past week, I have come to understand why some may be frustrated. I think RED understands it too as they have made some efforts to clarify some things and to leave the door open on some other upgrade paths to Weapon in the future. I do think there are probably some people who would benefit from sitting down with their business plans and seeing what makes sense in terms of camera ownership moving forward. This is a great time for cameras but also a challenging time if your business is not able to get ROI at the pace the industry moves now. Some may find that not owning cameras is actually a better approach in 2015, while others may be knocking it out of the park with ROI and happy to stay along the upgrade path. Both approaches are valid.

Daniel Reed
04-19-2015, 05:49 PM
Thanks for the sentiment Jarred.


we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end.

With all the running around for NAB, finding the time to write out your thoughts to this extent clearly shows how you, Jim, and the Red team are fully dedicated to all of your customers/family.

Some of the funnier replies in this thread remind how absurd reactions can be sometimes, myself included.


I'll buy the competitors $2 bill instead. I don't care if they cost $35. Fuck 'em

hahaha, I had a great laugh reading that. :beer:

Reminded me of the ole "Red vs Blue" series, I could totally hear Grif or maybe Church pontificating that rant.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=26&amp;v=-jqeCDNjdow

Meryem Ersoz
04-19-2015, 07:27 PM
Since

This is a great time for cameras but also a challenging time if your business is not able to get ROI at the pace the industry moves now. Some may find that not owning cameras is actually a better approach in 2015, while others may be knocking it out of the park with ROI and happy to stay along the upgrade path. Both approaches are valid.

This is the crux of the biscuit. The heart of the matter. And why it would benefit RED just as much as it would benefit red users, to find innovative ways to enable users to stay on the upgrade path - ways which would also line the pockets of RED simultaneously. This can be done. As the industry has changed, it may make sense to make some modifications to the upgrade model... that's all I'm suggesting. Not asking for a hand-out (don't need one).

Nikhil Kamkolkar
04-19-2015, 07:55 PM
This is the crux of the biscuit. The heart of the matter. And why it would benefit RED just as much as it would benefit red users, to find innovative ways to enable users to stay on the upgrade path - ways which would also line the pockets of RED simultaneously. This can be done. As the industry has changed, it may make sense to make some modifications to the upgrade model... that's all I'm suggesting. Not asking for a hand-out (don't need one).

Exactly the conclusion I arrived at and mentioned in one of my earlier posts.

RED needs to OWN the upgrade methodology and become the BEST AT IT. I have a three year old BMW and already my dealer sends me cards inviting me to update it to the latest and greatest and keep my "payment the same"... etc. There are ways RED can make some innovations in this area. If only they looked at it not as a <sarcasm on> "favor being done to low-budget indie filmmaker jerks with a sense of entitlement who think they deserve the latest cameras given away for free" </sarcasm off>, but as a patentable business process idea even.

Let's all repeat this mantra -- We can never demand RED do something it doesn't want to do. Similarly, RED cannot force us to do what we don't want to. This relationship is built on an idea of mutual benefit.

Just as we place a goodwill value on RED's receptiveness and responsiveness to customer pain points and needs, RED must place some goodwill value on that individual's investment of time and effort into the RED platform and not just say 'maybe the RED platform isn't for you'. That'd stink of elistism. Which is just as bad (and in my view, worse) than entitlement.

Ryan Lightbourn
04-19-2015, 09:01 PM
Dont worry we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end.

Wait, SO YOU MEAN OG SCARLET IS FINALLY GETTING 4.5K WS?!?!

Samir Patel
04-19-2015, 09:29 PM
Wait, SO YOU MEAN OG SCARLET IS FINALLY GETTING 4.5K WS?!?!
Yeah doubt this will ever happen. Btw someone at RED should update the scarlet page in the store it currently states 4.5K and anamorphic. Guess some could consider that false advertising

Clayton Taylor
04-20-2015, 09:34 AM
Jarred - One thing that confuses me is the move from Scarlet MX to Scarlet Dragon - I understand the price increase back to 12,500. I was hoping to make the move to dragon by the end of this year, but please try to understand my confustion.

To upgrade it costs $12,500.... To buy a Scarlet Dragon brand spanking new (meaning two camera bodies) it's only $13,050 with my EDU discount... so basically for $550 more I get a second camera.... That's one thing I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around. At least at $9,500 for Scarlet MX - > Scarlet Dragon, it made more sense. Hope that helps explain some of my confusion.

Jarred Land
04-20-2015, 09:39 AM
Jarred - One thing that confuses me is the move from Scarlet MX to Scarlet Dragon - I understand the price increase back to 12,500. I was hoping to make the move to dragon by the end of this year, but please try to understand my confustion.

To upgrade it costs $12,500.... To buy a Scarlet Dragon brand spanking new (meaning two camera bodies) it's only $13,050 with my EDU discount... so basically for $550 more I get a second camera.... That's one thing I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around. At least at $9,500 for Scarlet MX - > Scarlet Dragon, it made more sense. Hope that helps explain some of my confusion.

It's not really apples to apples to compare whatever your specific educational discount is against "normal" pricing, but the best thing for you to do is pretty obvious....

Cid J Salcido Uyarra
04-20-2015, 10:10 AM
This is really interesting. I think it's great that Red focused on Hi End only even if it excludes myself. Moving to LA, starting from the ground up and building a Live Grade DIT cart has been my main goal after I realized how flooded the Red market is out here and how I lost so much business cause I owned a Scarlet over an Epic. So many privileged kids out here I cant act like I can compete. Never could afford Epic and I doubt I will for some time until I improve my credit and get a couple racks stacked up. Until then I'm focusing on monitors and LUT box with calibration probe. It was hard enough getting a computer and RocketX to keep up with all these Dragon jobs. Luckily I'm 600 now and making the jump from $200/Day gigs to $1600/Day w/Kit jobs. All I need is a season on a TV show and I'm hoping to get into Dragon after my cart can handle every job thrown at me. But that maybe a year or two from now. I have life matters that are more important than a camera like travel or saving for a house.

I don't know what Red has in mind since Black Magic has done an excellent job in filling the promises that the original Scarlet camera had in mind. I mean the URSA mini is a great camera, one of the first to exceed 4k resolution at 60fps. Scarlet MX can barley keep up at speed and costs twice as much, before modules and accessories. URSA Mini is practically good to go out the box just add batteries and media. Does RAW & ProRes which Scarlet MX does not.

Even Canon isn't messing with the $1K-$5K price range it's really hard, I wonder how Black Magic makes profit and at what margins.

The fact that you can get the base model that does Hi-Speed and 4k for under $3K is amazing or bump up to 4.6K at $5K is rad.

Even if the MX cameras get a price drop I don't think it's enough. No one wants to pay over $10K for Epic MX brain or over $5K for Scarlet MX when all these camera manufacturers are catching up. MX owners will be pissed if the price drops cause their investment they worked so hard for is now cheaper and even more flooded market. Red owners will rent their kit for cheap as dirt but when it comes to re sale the prices are still high I don't get it.

I know a handful of peeps who canceled their Weapon upgrade cause they don't know any specs and it's kinda a bad deal. It's like trading in your old phone for $100 to your carrier when you can sell it on eBay for $200... what's the point? I know the upgrade is part of marketing but the Red One to Epic Stage deals are well over. No one wants to trade in their Dragon cause they just got cozy. During the trade in process your out of money, out of a camera to shoot on and who knows how buggy it will be. It seems like Weapon had ample time and looks like a solid build but that wasn't the case for Epic Dragon.

The times are changing. Even tho this post is generous and I thank Red for thinking of people like me, it's gonna be hard to compete with what's out there. Let's hope it's something good and worth while...

Maik Müller
04-20-2015, 10:20 AM
That's one thing I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around.
As Jarred stated, it's obvious what to do. I don't understand why have a hard time with this.
You should just bee happy and thankful to get EDU-rebates and don't compare EDU-prices with standard-numbers, to begin with.


At least at $9,500 for Scarlet MX - > Scarlet Dragon, it made more sense.
Last year we have been told this offer will not last forever. Surprisingly this year we got a second chance. Now this path is closed and everyone knew exactly when this is going to happen. Time to let go.

Terry VerHaar
04-20-2015, 10:33 AM
I admit, I don't keep close tabs on what is going on with Black Magic, AJA, Panasonic, Sony, etc. So, please correct me if I am wrong. But I don't think anyone has yet offered up a camera that shoots 4K (or more), raw, with some reasonable frame rates (above 24) right out of the camera. I know there are 4K feeds to ProRes, or 4:2:2 formats, and there is raw with external (and usually pretty costly) recorders.

I have a fair amount invested in the whole RED ecosystem - as, I am sure other RED shooters do. So, the issue becomes, when someone else can offer up a true competitor for what RED does so well, and it makes sense to re-evaluate the platform of choice, then I will personally entertain that discussion. So far, I don't think anyone has met that challenge.

Tarquin Cardona
04-20-2015, 10:57 AM
Sony has the FS7 which started out 4K UHD, and now shoots full 4K. All Cine EI and SLog. 14 stops DR etc...
I would not say it is a Dragon replacement, but it is very easy and light to use and sips on batteries and with good glass etc can surprise you.
I liked it better than the old C300 and it is 7999.00.

Elsie N
04-20-2015, 10:58 AM
I admit, I don't keep close tabs on what is going on with Black Magic, AJA, Panasonic, Sony, etc. So, please correct me if I am wrong. But I don't think anyone has yet offered up a camera that shoots 4K (or more), raw, with some reasonable frame rates (above 24) right out of the camera. I know there are 4K feeds to ProRes, or 4:2:2 formats, and there is raw with external (and usually pretty costly) recorders.

I have a fair amount invested in the whole RED ecosystem - as, I am sure other RED shooters do. So, the issue becomes, when someone else can offer up a true competitor for what RED does so well, and it makes sense to re-evaluate the platform of choice, then I will personally entertain that discussion. So far, I don't think anyone has met that challenge.

Even though another company equals or even surpasses RED, if whatever RED product I'm shooting at the time is good enough I will stay RED. RED to me is more than a camera but a whole-system content enabler.

Besides, I've got blood, sweat and tears type of emotions invested in this company.

Cid J Salcido Uyarra
04-20-2015, 10:59 AM
Here you go Terry....

URSA Mini (https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicursamini/techspecs/)


EF Mount $4995

Storage Rates
4608 x 2592
CinemaDNG RAW 3:1 - 180 MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 4:1 - 135 MB/s
3840 x 2160
Apple ProRes 444 XQ - 312.5 MB/s
Apple ProRes 444 - 165 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 HQ - 110 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 - 73.6 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 LT - 51 MB/s
Apple ProRes Proxy - 22.4 MB/s
1920 x 1080
Apple ProRes 444 XQ - 62.5 MB/s
Apple ProRes 444 - 41.25 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 HQ - 27.5 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 - 18.4 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 LT - 12.75 MB/s
Apple ProRes Proxy - 5.6 MB/s
Storage rates based on 30 frames per second.

Sensor Size
25.34mm x 14.25mm (Super35)
Shooting Resolutions
4608 x 2592
4096 x 2304 (4K 16:9)
4608 x 1920 (4K 2.4:1)
3840 x 2160 (Ultra HD)
3072 x 2560 (3K Anamorphic)
2048 x 1152 (2K 16:9)
1920 x 1080
Frame Rates
Maximum sensor frame rate dependent on resolution and codec selected. Project frame rates of 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30, 50, 59.94 and 60 fps supported.
Dynamic Range
15 stops

V Mount is $100 plus $2k in Media and your shooting

Cid J Salcido Uyarra
04-20-2015, 11:03 AM
I agree Elsie

I kept all my DSMC modules and just sold my Scarlet Brain so I can go Epic once the price is right. Your not on this forum unless your heavily invested or a fan boy.

But man these new cameras aren't too shabby.

This URSA sensor was built from the ground up not off the shelf. Finally did a Nissan car commercial with 4K production camera, I didn't care for the image horrible Dynamic Range and noisey as hell.

But these URSA specs do have me curious. ...will find out as soon as it's out and on jobs I work on.

Fabricio Morato
04-20-2015, 11:07 AM
I admit, I don't keep close tabs on what is going on with Black Magic, AJA, Panasonic, Sony, etc. So, please correct me if I am wrong. But I don't think anyone has yet offered up a camera that shoots 4K (or more), raw, with some reasonable frame rates (above 24) right out of the camera. I know there are 4K feeds to ProRes, or 4:2:2 formats, and there is raw with external (and usually pretty costly) recorders.

I have a fair amount invested in the whole RED ecosystem - as, I am sure other RED shooters do. So, the issue becomes, when someone else can offer up a true competitor for what RED does so well, and it makes sense to re-evaluate the platform of choice, then I will personally entertain that discussion. So far, I don't think anyone has met that challenge.

The OG Ursa from BMD, with v1 sensor, shoots 80fps 4k raw in camera and goes now for 5k (with v2 sensor). Kinefinity has Kinemax 6k with HFR (for 4k not 6k) going for 12k, shipping this month. The new Ursa 4.6k and Ursa mini 4.6k (with it's claimed 15 stops of DR) does 120/60 FPS in 4k raw, in camera (also 180fps HD windowed). The Aja cion does 60fps 4k in camera (prores hq) and has 120fps raw output.

Now each camera has it's own drawbacks compared to a Scarlet Mx or Dragon, and each have it's pros IMO.

At the end of the day, it's good to have options and force companies push harder on each release. And Red offerings are really good ones I think, specially Dragon.

Steve Sherrick
04-20-2015, 12:16 PM
I would caution everyone to hold their breath about the Ursa 4.6K until it is actually out in the wild. On paper, it looks like it really does fill in that under $10K market very well. Blackmagic has done some things really well (continuing to evolve Resolve) and other things not so well (BMPC4K). I need to see how the camera deals with high frequency detail, motion cadence, IR, blackshading (pixel remapping), etc. Also, only two mounts. So if you own Nikon, Leica, etc you'll need to adapt to EF mount. Or go PL. a MFT mount would have been a nice option.

Anyway, point is I wouldn't sell Epic or Scarlet until I know for sure what the BM 4.6K camera will actually deliver. When it's available to test and the specs meet real world results, then things might get really interesting. And speaking of delivering, will they be able to meet the demand? They have had issues in the past (I know RED has as well).

As always, getting there 90% is the relatively easy part, it's that last 10% that can make the difference. For example, I needed to buy a mini amp to drive some Avantone Mixcubes. Plenty of cheap, decent options out there. But ultimately I decided that I needed the little bit of extra quality to avoid some things that would ultimately annoy me. Paid the extra for that last little bit of quality. It was very tempting to go with the cheap option though because on paper it seemed like a lot of bang for the buck. And it probably is, but I know I wouldn't be completely happy.

Elsie N
04-20-2015, 12:23 PM
I agree Elsie

I kept all my DSMC modules and just sold my Scarlet Brain so I can go Epic once the price is right. Your not on this forum unless your heavily invested or a fan boy.

But man these new cameras aren't too shabby.

This URSA sensor was built from the ground up not off the shelf. Finally did a Nissan car commercial with 4K production camera, I didn't care for the image horrible Dynamic Range and noisey as hell.

But these URSA specs do have me curious. ...will find out as soon as it's out and on jobs I work on. I for one would never criticize anyone putting cash in the coffers for their choice of camera to keep that happening.

May the 4k be with you. '-)

Meryem Ersoz
04-20-2015, 12:32 PM
I think Clayton is trying to understand the financial logic of the RED upgrade system, there's no need to ream him for it. He's not alone in feeling uncertain about paying as much for the upgrade as he has already paid for the camera.

My MX is off the upgrade path. That means RED loses any further dollars from me to maintain that camera. This doesn't seem like a win for either RED or for me, really. Which is why I'm trying to offer suggestions for alternatives.

I wish more people were brainstorming out potentially useful alternatives instead of engaging in sarcasm, name-calling and lol-ing. It would be nice to be able to have a reasonable and intelligent conversation on other possibilities....what would a win-win look like?

Elsie N
04-20-2015, 12:42 PM
I think Clayton is trying to understand the financial logic of the RED upgrade system, there's no need to ream him for it. He's not alone in feeling uncertain about paying as much for the upgrade as he has already paid for the camera.

My MX is off the upgrade path. That means RED loses any further dollars from me to maintain that camera. This doesn't seem like a win for either RED or for me, really. Which is why I'm trying to offer suggestions for alternatives.

I wish more people were brainstorming out potentially useful alternatives instead of engaging in sarcasm, name-calling and lol-ing. It would be nice to be able to have a reasonable and intelligent conversation on other possibilities....what would a win-win look like?

I admit to not being brought up in a "Group Think" culture, but one where I was taught to be self-reliant. And because of that mentality, I don't think it is incumbent upon me to solve this problem. if we solve it for those who can't do for themselves, they will never learn survival skills.

The above may sound cheeky but i'm dead serious.

Scott Crawley
04-20-2015, 12:54 PM
My MX is off the upgrade path. That means RED loses any further dollars from me to maintain that camera.

If your camera needed repairs you wouldn't send it in just because you an no longer upgrade it? I'm fairly certain they can and will still fix it for you within reason.

Christoffer Glans
04-20-2015, 12:55 PM
The truth is that the camera line up has always been lower than most other companies competing in the same class.
I don't have the money for an Alexa or a Sony F65, but I had the money for an Epic MX which I now upgraded to an Epic Dragon.
What has happened now with Weapon is that they opened up the high end market.

Most filmmakers still favors Alexa, which is the biggest competitor to Red no doubt. To make matters worse for Arri, Red now released Weapon, which is a higher end camera that delivers more than an Alexa could but around the same figures. We are talking VistaVision 8K high end filmmaking competing with a 4K s35 camera.

People forget that this might change the industry and which camera is preferred. The more stable and better Red cameras get and the easier the workflow gets, more people will use Red for their projects. This will be good for everyone. You won't have to hear producers complaining about Red because they heard someone somewhere sometime say that Red cameras are unreliable. Because now Red features the easiest workflow for high end projects.

Our cameras, be it Scarlet or Epic dragons haven't lost their value on the market. They are still where they are while Weapon is a higher end version of our cameras.

And, if this thread is focusing on indie filmmakers, if you can't make a movie that connects with people using any Red camera, then you might not be cut out for making movies.
Even the Scarlet MX is more than enough to make movies with. People still make movies with DSLR's. Movies that get released on iTunes!

If it turns out that I will never be able to upgrade to Weapon and I'm stuck with my Epic Dragon, I will still be able to create stuff with it for at least the next 10 years without it loosing it's value as a creative tool. And if that isn't value I dunno, ten years is a long time.

Paul Russell
04-21-2015, 08:50 PM
As an Indie shooter/Dragon owner, I'm not worried about the Weapon. I understand that it's a high end extension of the range that someone like me really doesn't need right now. And in a year or so time, it'll drop a little in price and I'll be able to upgrade my Dragon. Nothing wrong with that.

shashbugu
04-23-2015, 08:34 AM
The truth is that the camera line up has always been lower than most other companies competing in the same class.
I don't have the money for an Alexa or a Sony F65, but I had the money for an Epic MX which I now upgraded to an Epic Dragon.
What has happened now with Weapon is that they opened up the high end market.

Most filmmakers still favors Alexa, which is the biggest competitor to Red no doubt. To make matters worse for Arri, Red now released Weapon, which is a higher end camera that delivers more than an Alexa could but around the same figures. We are talking VistaVision 8K high end filmmaking competing with a 4K s35 camera.

People forget that this might change the industry and which camera is preferred. The more stable and better Red cameras get and the easier the workflow gets, more people will use Red for their projects. This will be good for everyone. You won't have to hear producers complaining about Red because they heard someone somewhere sometime say that Red cameras are unreliable. Because now Red features the easiest workflow for high end projects.

Our cameras, be it Scarlet or Epic dragons haven't lost their value on the market. They are still where they are while Weapon is a higher end version of our cameras.

And, if this thread is focusing on indie filmmakers, if you can't make a movie that connects with people using any Red camera, then you might not be cut out for making movies.
Even the Scarlet MX is more than enough to make movies with. People still make movies with DSLR's. Movies that get released on iTunes!

If it turns out that I will never be able to upgrade to Weapon and I'm stuck with my Epic Dragon, I will still be able to create stuff with it for at least the next 10 years without it loosing it's value as a creative tool. And if that isn't value I dunno, ten years is a long time.

I'm not sure i understand you. The Epic Dragon is a great camera, it has more resolution than the Alexa, but DP's and Producers favor the Alexa over the Dragon. The Weapon Dragon as announced has the same camera image as the Epic Dragon. Alexa has a 6K 65mm censor F65 DP's are currently raving about. I dont think you should worry about resolution and DR at this stage of the game. The Epic Dragon will be here for another 5 years. Vista Vision is a niche product, although I wouldn't worry about it right now.

Jeffrey Loewe
04-23-2015, 08:51 AM
The truth is that the camera line up has always been lower than most other companies competing in the same class.
I don't have the money for an Alexa or a Sony F65, but I had the money for an Epic MX which I now upgraded to an Epic Dragon.
What has happened now with Weapon is that they opened up the high end market.

Most filmmakers still favors Alexa, which is the biggest competitor to Red no doubt. To make matters worse for Arri, Red now released Weapon, which is a higher end camera that delivers more than an Alexa could but around the same figures. We are talking VistaVision 8K high end filmmaking competing with a 4K s35 camera.

People forget that this might change the industry and which camera is preferred. The more stable and better Red cameras get and the easier the workflow gets, more people will use Red for their projects. This will be good for everyone. You won't have to hear producers complaining about Red because they heard someone somewhere sometime say that Red cameras are unreliable. Because now Red features the easiest workflow for high end projects.

Our cameras, be it Scarlet or Epic dragons haven't lost their value on the market. They are still where they are while Weapon is a higher end version of our cameras.

And, if this thread is focusing on indie filmmakers, if you can't make a movie that connects with people using any Red camera, then you might not be cut out for making movies.
Even the Scarlet MX is more than enough to make movies with. People still make movies with DSLR's. Movies that get released on iTunes!

If it turns out that I will never be able to upgrade to Weapon and I'm stuck with my Epic Dragon, I will still be able to create stuff with it for at least the next 10 years without it loosing it's value as a creative tool. And if that isn't value I dunno, ten years is a long time.
Maybe i'm not understanding you correctly. How is an entire camera lineup that actually shoots 4K + resolution in a lower class than other companies? Arri has been around along time. They own the market because of their history. How quickly RED has moved in is pretty impressive. I'd wager to say if RED sticks around another 30 some years they'll own just as much if not more of the market, maybe even sooner.

I don't think you can really classify RED cameras in a lower class just because RED helped democratize the market and get cameras in more hands of endusers than Arri by using aggressive pricing. I wouldn't say 10K/day rentals on that Arri 6K 65MM camera puts it in a higher end class, other than camera specs in terms of sensor size. It's just more expensive and some prefer the taste of Arri. Personally I prefer the RED image, and think the fact I can actually afford it puts RED in a higher class because in reality more people are using them, and because they actually get it.

Jeffrey T. Morgan
04-23-2015, 09:38 AM
I feel like alot of our Scarlet customers and the indie shooters out there are having some separation anxiety looking at the price point of Weapon and a few people are concerned we have forgotten about the "little guys".

Dont worry we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end.




This is a wonderful, wonderful thing to hear. I didn't realize how out in the cold I was feeling until I read this. While most of the post is actually saying how cool Weapon is, it will be interesting to see what entry level / sub 20k customers can purchase from Red in the future.

Thanks Jarred

Christoffer Glans
04-23-2015, 09:42 AM
My point being that Red has always made affordable high end cameras that rival and technically surpass expensive ones from companies like Arri. But now, with Weapon they have a more expensive option that's even better than the Epic Dragon. Which even further strengthen the status of Red. The 8K VistaVision will be a much more flexible format than the 65mm Arri, due to available lenses and R3D format.
Only really high end productions will afford the Arri 65. Most other productions who would like to shoot with something more flexible but still performing in the highest league might look into the 8K Vista.

What I mean is that there is still this love for Arri, seen very much on the Oscar nomination list this year which feature almost only Arri cameras. Be it tradition or whatever, but with Red giving the ability to use a fast workflow with ProRes and in a lighter and better performing body, it will gain even more ground in this uphill battle against the titans like Arri. And this is good for any Red owner, because bigger productions inspire more people to use Red cameras and give us more work.

I know producers who shoot on Alexa because movies like those in the Oscar run used them, not because they are the best for their production. So getting the biggest DP's to choose Weapon will inspire lesser knowing people in the industry to choose Red over Alexa and in turn they might use the cameras we have, even though they aren't Weapons.

shashbugu
04-23-2015, 11:12 AM
My point being that Red has always made affordable high end cameras that rival and technically surpass expensive ones from companies like Arri. But now, with Weapon they have a more expensive option that's even better than the Epic Dragon. Which even further strengthen the status of Red. The 8K VistaVision will be a much more flexible format than the 65mm Arri, due to available lenses and R3D format.
Only really high end productions will afford the Arri 65. Most other productions who would like to shoot with something more flexible but still performing in the highest league might look into the 8K Vista.

What I mean is that there is still this love for Arri, seen very much on the Oscar nomination list this year which feature almost only Arri cameras. Be it tradition or whatever, but with Red giving the ability to use a fast workflow with ProRes and in a lighter and better performing body, it will gain even more ground in this uphill battle against the titans like Arri. And this is good for any Red owner, because bigger productions inspire more people to use Red cameras and give us more work.

I know producers who shoot on Alexa because movies like those in the Oscar run used them, not because they are the best for their production. So getting the biggest DP's to choose Weapon will inspire lesser knowing people in the industry to choose Red over Alexa and in turn they might use the cameras we have, even though they aren't Weapons.

Point well taken, you are absolutely right about reasons people choose Alexa, the Oscars being one of them. Majority of the Oscar winners and nominees shot Film and Raw. Majority of the Oscar nominees were low to medium budget productions whose line producers would rather put money into other logistics other done camera and Post. There are however more indie movies that shoot with the Red than with any Arri. Simply put there are more Reds in the world than there are Arri Alexa's. the form factor of the Epics allow for quick, discrete and lighter setups. There's this myth about Red's lowlight sensitivity. When was the last time you watched a cult indie movie with bad lighting, I mean as bad as 80' indie Movies. ( let me clarify, Low budget to me means above $250k and below 5 million). Lights are so cheap to own or rent these days. They are brighter, more controllable and render cleaner colors. You should call your local Panavision or big equipment rental company to get pricing on equipment. You get a Sprinter van worth of camera gear for $30K for a 5 week shoot. So it doesn't matter which camera cost more, since you can get two bodies of any of the cameras with all the bells and whistles including glass, wireless monitoring and focusing etc for that much. Your Red Scarlet Dragon or Epic Dragon is a blockbuster cam and its the only camera you'll need for the next 5 years.

Christoffer Glans
04-24-2015, 09:29 AM
let me clarify, Low budget to me means above $250k and below 5 million

You mean mid budget in Sweden? Hahahaha :laugh:
Low budget for me is working for free, hoping to get something for the showreel.

M.Halsell
04-24-2015, 09:35 AM
You mean mid budget in Sweden? Hahahaha :laugh:
Low budget for me is working for free, hoping to get something for the showreel.

The technical term would be No Budget (NB). There are varying degrees of ways to give away your time. May as well give a professional handle :)

Nils Ruinet
04-25-2015, 06:40 AM
Jarred,
one thing that still isn't clear to me is this : is Epic Dragon EOL, or will there be an upgrade path in a couple of years or so when a new sensor comes out (not the 8K upgrade which is more a Dragon-8K-instead-of-6K upgrade than a new sensor) ? Or will all the people who haven't upgraded to Weapon be left out ?

Also, about opening the module development to third parties, isn't that something you could also do for Epic and Scarlet ?

Thanks :)

Scott Crawley
04-25-2015, 08:39 AM
Jarred,
one thing that still isn't clear to me is this : is Epic Dragon EOL, or will there be an upgrade path in a couple of years or so when a new sensor comes out (not the 8K upgrade which is more a Dragon-8K-instead-of-6K upgrade than a new sensor) ? Or will all the people who haven't upgraded to Weapon be left out ?

Also, about opening the module development to third parties, isn't that something you could also do for Epic and Scarlet ?

Thanks :)

I understand that a definitive answer from Jarred is preferred but I can tell you he has stated that Dragon was the passport to future upgrades; Weapon being just one of those. He has also stated that there are other upgrades coming for Epic and Scarlet Dragon. I hope that helps some.

That seemed to be half the point of this thread. Again, further clarification from the source is always good.

Nikhil Kamkolkar
04-25-2015, 11:39 AM
I suppose another way to look at this would be - RED started out taking care of indie filmmakers really. Awesome cameras for awesome prices. Now, they want to take care of their high-end customers. Those with tons of budget and crew and needs that arise out of such a model.

Hopefully, they'll bring those advancements down to the indie filmmakers, because really, the production model itself is shifting to becoming democratized across the entire workflow, not just camera. Hence, the need for all the "fixes" in Weapon, and the "new modules" interface of weapon to make their way into an affordable system for indies. Maybe not right now, but very, very soon.

To say that only the high-end Weapon line will have the ability to not require 'blackshading' is a total cop out, in my opinion. The most affordable of the RED camera line up should have it. These are minimal requirements, these days. Not luxuries, and maybe that's where the back-and-forth lies. Since I see this as a given, and maybe there are many who don't.

Detlev Eller
04-25-2015, 01:47 PM
I suppose another way to look at this would be - RED started out taking care of indie filmmakers really. Awesome cameras for awesome prices. Now, they want to take care of their high-end customers. Those with tons of budget and crew and needs that arise out of such a model. ...

Which is great business sense. Would be rather foolish to not serve these needs with the latest innovations and pushing the frontiers. As technology competition is speeding up, it is also very important to recover R&D quicker than the competition can copy cat the latest ... which we have seen a bit of ... LOL

... have to say it, i´m as indie as it gets and i feel very much taken care of by RED ... ;-)


+ by the way, being an "underfunded indie" is completely up to us and not REDs fault ... it´s a choice to make it on our own terms ... which is great!
guess, given the tech at hand and coming with a bit of a vision, everyone is free to align his mind to the markets and make happen whatever is needed.


cheers,
Detlev

Robert Ruffo New
05-11-2015, 07:17 PM
I feel like alot of our Scarlet customers and the indie shooters out there are having some separation anxiety looking at the price point of Weapon and a few people are concerned we have forgotten about the "little guys".

Dont worry we are not abandoning the "lower" end and just focusing on the super high end.

Truth be told the Scarlet Dragon is anything but low end... It is actually a better camera than almost every high end camera out there if you actually compare the specs. And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near.

But Weapon isn't in Scarlet territory.. it never was intended to be a direct jump for most Scarlet owners. Remember, Weapon sits above Epic. And for the fortunate Scarlet owners that can do the jump.... we give you the option.

The requests for a Weapon to to have the price of a Scarlet is an unreasonable expectation. For Weapon we had to invent alot of new technology to make it possible. Remember we design our own ASICS, Sensors, Mechanicals etc. And that is not cheap. It is easy to just take machine vision sensors and off the shelf FPGAs and make an inexpensive camera. But they usually fall short. That of course getting better as the years go on... But so are we.

I believe it is some existing Epic customers that are in a position of contemplation. Part of that is from the confusion of the credits and options and some don't realize that we are giving you more than $10k off in credits or accessories, plus the value of your trade-in. You are actually paying somewhere around $12k all things considered to do the upgrade to MG Weapon depending on what you are going from. And that is a killer deal.

The Weapon fills a hole for the best of the best. It really is incredible. Even if you take away the 8K sensor, the improvements we have made to the form factor, the internal processing, ProRes, etc.. is a huge achievement. Our engineers solved alot of "impossibles" along the way. the 3rd party module support is finally going to make use of the modular vision. The Weapon has done extremely well this week with the customers it was made for. Wouldn't change anything about it.

And yes Mark that was a great analogy. We probably do spoil our customers. But our customers also spoil us...

True that! Even the Red One MX is better than many high other current end cameras in certain ways, let alone the Scarlet.

Robert Ruffo New
05-11-2015, 07:25 PM
Michael, I'm interested in knowing more about your experience using Epic Dragon vs Scarlet Dragon. I'm leaning towards upgrading to Epic Dragon. Do you actually use the half Ks that often? I've seen the compression wedge thread, but do you see a noticeable jump in real world image quality of 6K 24fps vs 5K 24fps 7:1 downscaled to 4K? I'm sure the frame rate improvements are obvious, based on my Scarlet Dragon HFR tests. Any other thoughts?

The field of view is wider on Epic, it's not about the resolution really - but it makes a huge visual difference.

Daniel Reed
05-12-2015, 12:08 AM
I'm interested in knowing more about your experience using Epic Dragon vs Scarlet Dragon. I'm leaning towards upgrading to Epic Dragon. Do you actually use the half Ks that often?

I find 5.5K to be an interesting sweet spot for fov, lens coverage, IQ falloff, and is hair more then double the image data of 4K.
If moving the camera is involved, the full 6K stabilized down to a 5.5K crop provides the same quality 4K down-sample.

Bill Stengel
05-12-2015, 06:32 AM
The truth is that the camera line up has always been lower than most other companies competing in the same class.
I don't have the money for an Alexa or a Sony F65, but I had the money for an Epic MX which I now upgraded to an Epic Dragon.

I read his post several times, and I'm pretty sure Christoffer meant lower price - not lower camera spec or class. He sort of qualified that in the second sentence by saying he didn't have the money for Alexa, but did have the money for EPIC.

Karel Šimůnek
09-09-2015, 02:56 AM
Jarred,

can you now say anything more about Scarlet's future? Just give us the name of it. Just the name.
Or just say if the next Scarlet gets the new form factor with Dragon sensor just like Weapon. Or if it comes directly with the new sensor and body. :-)

Thanks

Karel

Jason Chute
09-23-2015, 05:05 AM
Since you have a new red raven with 4 120FPS is there any plans to improve the Slowmo feature set on the red scarlet MX? or are we out in the cold on this one?

Bérenger Brillante
09-25-2015, 03:25 AM
scarlet Mx is already At full capacity.
The upgrade was Dragon, and I bet Scarlet Dragon is working At full capacity too.

Patrick Grossien
09-25-2015, 10:12 PM
I don't wanna add to the noise, but the one thing I feel is missing is the 4.5K option for Scarlet Dragon. I think it was left out of the MX because it didn't add any useful recording option, but with scarlet Dragon this would be truly helpful.

Terry VerHaar
09-25-2015, 10:37 PM
Glad someone dug up and resurrected this thread. I had remembered Jarred commenting about the future of Scarlet Dragon but didn't recall how specific and extensive his comments were. This is what makes the investment in RED all that much more worthwhile. Raven is just another step forward.

Fernando Tufiño
09-26-2015, 09:53 PM
there are news coming about Scarlet Dragon´s future path, just keep working, save, and wait

PatrickFaith
09-26-2015, 11:14 PM
Well I have really taken advantage of the scarlet upgrades, I had bought two mx scarlets and have upgraded them both to epic dragons(huge thank you to RED). But due to timing and all, I just couldn't swing both of the recently converted scarlets(to epic dragons), to weapons. I'm hopping this indie upgrade approach for dragon is more then just for the scarlet dragon, but also those Indie's that couldn't make the shift from epic dragon to weapon. I had recently moved both my scarlets to epic dragons before weapon's announcement, but could only swing moving one of them to 8k weapon . So my B camera (epic dragon) camera's will match up well with my 8k weapon r3d, but I like to have all my accessories and network approach all the same. Id love my B camera (epic dragon) to be some type of weapon, it doesn't need huge fps or anything, just needs to shoot 6k FF at red code 5:1 24fps and have the same accessories and network management as my NAB ordered 8k.

sam karr
09-27-2015, 01:12 AM
Well I have really taken advantage of the scarlet upgrades, I had bought two mx scarlets and have upgraded them both to epic dragons(huge thank you to RED). But due to timing and all, I just couldn't swing both of the recently converted scarlets(to epic dragons), to weapons. I'm hopping this indie upgrade approach for dragon is more then just for the scarlet dragon, but also those Indie's that couldn't make the shift from epic dragon to weapon. I had recently moved both my scarlets to epic dragons before weapon's announcement, but could only swing moving one of them to 8k weapon . So my B camera (epic dragon) camera's will match up well with my 8k weapon r3d, but I like to have all my accessories and network approach all the same. Id love my B camera (epic dragon) to be some type of weapon, it doesn't need huge fps or anything, just needs to shoot 6k FF at red code 5:1 24fps and have the same accessories and network management as my NAB ordered 8k.

I think that the new scarlet will be limited to 5k like the raven is limited to 4k. With no limitation on redcode and framerate. No 6K. And I hope it will be. That would be sad if scarlet dragon owners had to pay an insane amount to upgrade. The dragon upgrade was already almost the price of the camera itself. It was the same as the epic upgrade price which is a way more expensive camera. So I do hope they will make a new scarlet for scarlet owners and not for epic owners disappointed in the weapon price. Having a 5k only weaponized scarlet will please many epic owners anyway.

Jae Solina
09-28-2015, 02:33 PM
You guys think they will upgrade the scarlet dragon or the scarlet mx. I think scarlet mx is the 4K4ALL now lol so many on sale