Thread: Tested Monstro vs. Helium

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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by Blair S. Paulsen View Post
    First - RED color science prior to IPP2, was, no offense to Graeme, less sophisticated than ARRIs. Hardly a shock since ARRI had an entire team that spent years refining the color rendition of the digital files from their film scanners. Additionally, as others have noted, ARRI tweaked their color matrix in specific ranges to rein in certain hue/luma combinations that would rarely be desired. IMO, this is pretty subtle and for typical narrative work 90+% of the tweaks are what you'd want anyway.

    Here's a supposition I'd love to try and prove with proper testing: ARRI's color matrix sacrifices some color precision in and near common skin tones to reduce the deviation threshold, RED's color matrix is simply trying to nail scene referred values. Wouldn't such "tweaking" create odd color shits on Alexas? I think it will, but not by much - and if you never saw that scene in real life, how would you know? Skin tone, OTOH, is something humans are evolutionally trained to perceive very precisely (interesting subject, but beyond this thread), so even subtle shifts are easily noticed.

    When making the leading lady look her best, or the model for the product look radiantly healthy, etc is your task as a DP - a little bias toward skin tone rendition sounds like a plus.

    It's also worth noting that during production, not always but typically, the image on the monitor is king. You can explain grading, gamma curves, rec709 color, ambient light, debayering and a hundred other things but, especially on spots, the WYSIWYG expectation persists.

    Cheers - #19
    Yes, this is according to my uderstanding as well.

    I have not read enough of Graemes white paper to know for sure, but as Im told red IPP2 colors is pure mathematical curves, no color warping as in warping the shape of the color cube. To me that is a more "accurate" way of doing things than creating a 3D lut that push/pull the colors around. As I understand Arri is doing.

    What fascinate me the most is how Kodak, Fudji and the others could 1. even get a colored image out of a plastic strip and silver flakes. Then imagine to make all that, mixing chemical liquids etc so it looks better than real.... To me thats quite an accomplishment. doing it digital seams so much more easy, but I guess not.
    Björn Benckert
    Creative Lead & Founder Syndicate Entertainment AB
    +46855524900 www.syndicate.se/axis
    Monstro & Komodo
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  2. #182  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    New 3DLut Creator Pro 1.4.6 green skin removal tests. Its not a proper mathematical Color matrix transform, just another method some users may use. Also, because it isn't a proper mathematical Color matrix transform, it will only work for this specific color correction and scene. Both the Redcine-X reference and the 3DLut Creator images used a"5000" Temp and "-16.00" Tint.


    I used a different "A/B" skin tone correction this time with a "HSPe" color model the default for 3Dlut Creator.





    Also with a smoother curve for the RedWidegamut colors.






    Then I exported the combination of the "RedWidegamut" colors, the custom "S-Curve" and the "A/B" skin modifications out as an "IPP2" Lut similar to "Medium Contrast" and a "Very Soft Roll-Off" into Davinci Resolve.



    Next I exported a "Medium Contrast" with "Very Soft Roll-Off".Tiff out of Redcine-X Pro to use as a "Reference.


    Redcine-X Reference, with skin tone isolated with Vectorscope. Lips were masked so as to not exaggerate red in the vectorscope.












    My Export Lut out of 3DLut Creator Pro 1.4.6, with skin tone isolated with Vectorscope.










    with -2 Log Shadow added .






    I think I might still need to de-saturate the skin tone just a little bit more however.
    Last edited by rand thompson; 03-27-2018 at 07:43 AM.
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  3. #183  
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    Quote Originally Posted by rand thompson View Post
    Thanks a lot for the offer Tobi! You know I have a color correcting sickness..HaHa
    Hi Rand,
    That's a fantastic sickness to have.....
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  4. #184  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    HA HA ...thanks sreennivasa. But sometimes it takes 3 or 4 tries to get an "acceptable" grade that I can "leave it alone".
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  5. #185  
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    Hi Rand,

    I don't know shit about color mathematics, like you, I just love to color things and was determined, at the time, to get a better color profile for my Helium. But I discovered several limitations in making a 3D lut, at least in resolve. I'm definitely going to try this program to see if I can do better.

    I think you did a good job in making the skin look better in your example but now the rest of the scene has a strange reddish cast to it. This is why I qualify all the colors separately in Resolve and play with all the curves and qualification to neutralize all unwanted casts and get as much color seperation and nuance as possible. I still find that Alexa footage gets you to this neutral place with decent skintones right out o f the camera. I sound like a broken record about this but I'm hoping RED is listening and realizes that fixing the color could be a huge boom for sales. They can keep IPP2 for the hardcore but make another profile that's more idiot proof and great for clients.

    Been looking at all this night time footage from the Montstro and, yes, its super clean but the color is still so underwhelming in IPP2. I'm a 100% sure this will be the best and easiest RED footage to color and make it look amazing but right outside of the camera its kind of whatevs. Surely its a lot cheaper to hire the best colorist in the world for a few months to come up with a great profile for a RED camera then it is to build a sensor from scratch every year. It's time RED beats the haters at their own game.
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  6. #186  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Anton,

    You`re right about the background being more reddish after the grade. However, that is mostly due to the background colors being so close to the female talent's skin tone. Also notice it hardly changed the color chips on the colorchecker or the blacks of the leather in the chair or of the colorchecker. I like you have both "qualified" and "power windowed" a scene to death.


    Case in point.

    [IMG]Untitled000864003jpg by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]


    But just imagine doing that for a couple of thousand scenes of a short film or feature. I just want to get atleast a good starting point so that so much qualification and power windowing are not as necessary. A good colorist, which I am not, is priceless and knowing enough to help collabrate with your coloirist to get the best from a scene is also very important.
    Last edited by rand thompson; 03-26-2018 at 08:45 AM.
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  7. #187  
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    Exactly Rand what I want is how to get the last image you sent: has white balanced colors without a strong cast with good skintones but without using any windows or qualifyers at all.

    There's no way to get this perfectly with any camera but the Alexa is the one that gives the easiest starting point. But I'm convinced this can be done better on a color science level. Just look at the Panavision camera: it's a RED sensor but with a much better color starting point.
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  8. #188  
    Senior Member rand thompson's Avatar
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    Anton,

    Here's another comparison with the change in the "A/B" corrector in 3DLut Creator for skin tones. This time with no corresponding background/ Skin tone conflict. My Lut seems to have lightened certain "Reds" in this scene, I will have to see what caused it later. I understand what you are saying about achieving a desired look in camera instead of having to work for that same look in post. Unfortunately for some red users for now, Alexa and one of the other manufacturers is the only way to get that, barring making the corrections in post as I see it.

    Out of Resolve Red "Medium Con- Soft Hi Roll-off"




    Out of Resolve 3DLut Creator


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  9. #189  
    Rand...this thread also is not a color grading thread.

    And what you did there with the image messes up other things in the signal so may feel good in some shots while messing up the other.
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  10. #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    Please Horjve, are on this again. Yes the problem is with them and apparently also with you, even if I tried to explain it to you many times over.
    No need to explain anything.

    I'm going to take your name spelling as humour attempt from this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    So if the resolution does not matter then this camera is a total and complete waste. As thats pretty much all it gives.

    It does not matter much for jump from 3K to 4K. If you are typically shooting Alexa and care about that texture.

    And no, that is not all it gives. It gives a larger format.


    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    So I dont see how that would magnify the "perspective". Perspective is not anything DOF related,

    Larger format > larger lens crop > wider perspective

    Wider perspective > longer lens for the same shot > shallower DoF
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