Thread: Desaturated shadows?

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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Lochert View Post
    Seems to be a processing/grade thing rather than a Komodo thing.

    Mushy


    Not mushy
    The clip needs to play or you don't see the error / saturation shift when moving along the ipp2 curve.
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  2. #42  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    If it doesn't happen in the r3d/when bypassing IPP2, then it's a somewhat non-issue (IMO). It should also be recoverable after transform by using REDs IPP2 conversion LUTs (instead of native IPP2) as you could add a node pre-tonemap/rolloff and boost the shadows/shadow saturation to taste.

    This also strengthens Panavision's/Light Iron's/DXL's decision of bypassing IPP2 altogether and having their own LUT applied on an all encompassing RWG/L3G10 image.
    But it is a problem since it occurs in-camera as well. And the LUTs convert in the same way as internally doing it, doing a side by side between the two is identical.

    But yes, the way to do it is to create your own conversion from LOG3G10. But I also think that Red should look into updating IPP2 into IPP3 or something, same methodology, but improving these conversions and especially look into how each camera handles it. One conversion that fits all seems a bit odd in my opinion, encompassing all different sensors into one conversion. If the starting point in LOG has a variation that doesn't work well through the transform, that camera doesn't get its full potential. What Light Iron did was to focus on only one sensor to its full potential.

    I would love for Komodo to get this kind of love, because even if grading from scratch might be a solution, we need a good standard method, not to mention that any shots in ProRes hardcodes the transform.


    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    Im not sure that's how Panavision does it. As I understand they only use a primer lut under IPP2.
    Aren't they essentially having their own starting point, not even IPP2 based? Like a sort of "IPP3"?
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  3. #43  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Lochert View Post
    Seems to be a processing/grade thing rather than a Komodo thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by James Sielaff View Post
    what is your process?
    So far it looks like the problems occur on the standard IPP2 workflow. So it's the standard basic conversion process of the IPP2 pipeline, which is why it's visible both in post and in-camera. However, we don't know if it's the case that Komodo, as it acts a bit differently than the other DSMC2s, is out of sync with the transform process. That would mean that we either update the IPP2 pipeline (which I think is the preferable way since it seems some people see this on their DSMC2 as well), or a firmware update to change how Komodo's starting point behaves before a transform.

    Komodo already has a serious green tint all over the low range, which I don't really get. It almost looks like some bad teal/orange grade in some cases, with the consequent bad "rims" occurring between mid-lit areas and shadows. This green tint needs to be addressed in someway and might even be the reason this is so visible on Komodo material.
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  4. #44  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Here's two images, one where I split between IPP2 output node and my own conversion from LOG3G10. The other is a reference from my Canon R which handles the saturation curve much better when underexposed.

    IPP2 and a grade conversion from LOG3G10.


    Canon R


    Here's a DNxHR of the split
    https://we.tl/t-SzpwCH5Gjp


    The most noticeable thing in comparison to both Canon and DSMC2s is how extremely green-tinted the IPP2 conversion is from Komodo. It might even be why it tends to become greyish, not so much just becoming less saturated, it also has a tint to it that counters all warmer colors and hard-cuts blue colors with this tint. So the yellow pillow gets this awful green tint in the lower range which essentially nullifies saturation. Considering that the pillow isn't truly yellow and more muted brown/orange, it's not skin color, but near it and this is alarming as when we film faces, we might get this low range green tint to counteract and mess up the roll-off in low-key shots of people.

    It's also impossible to get to pure black with the IPP2 transforms, it's always just above black and using a node after it pusing it down to black cuts every shade crammed within that area to black.
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  5. #45  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Working on a new transform LUT that gets rid of some of the problems and improves upon some of the color science, at least in my opinion.

    First, the shadows go down into black, not elevated to desaturated grey with compressed details. Second, some more saturation in shadows to counter it cutting off. Third, suppression of odd colors.

    Original IPP2 Medium / Soft




    LUT 1 (with gamma correlating to IPP2)




    LUT 2 (Darker gamma)

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  6. #46  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Seems like shadow areas get improved with this.



    DNxHR download
    https://we.tl/t-lzyP0I08rs
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  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    But it is a problem since it occurs in-camera as well. And the LUTs convert in the same way as internally doing it, doing a side by side between the two is identical.

    But yes, the way to do it is to create your own conversion from LOG3G10. But I also think that Red should look into updating IPP2 into IPP3 or something, same methodology, but improving these conversions and especially look into how each camera handles it. One conversion that fits all seems a bit odd in my opinion, encompassing all different sensors into one conversion. If the starting point in LOG has a variation that doesn't work well through the transform, that camera doesn't get its full potential. What Light Iron did was to focus on only one sensor to its full potential.

    I would love for Komodo to get this kind of love, because even if grading from scratch might be a solution, we need a good standard method, not to mention that any shots in ProRes hardcodes the transform.




    Aren't they essentially having their own starting point, not even IPP2 based? Like a sort of "IPP3"?
    That would not make sense. How would people work with Panavision material if it was not r3d´s like any onther r3d´s. And people have reverse engineered out the DXL look out of DIT software that had the DXL2 look built in and made separate lut out of it.
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  8. #48  
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    The hard part is feeling confident about handing off footage if this is an issue with IPP2 defaults.

    I am seeing this issue on the Gemini as well.

    Thinking back, I had seen this issue on a SmallHD monitor I was testing out, and thought it was a smallHD issue. And the issue in the OLED EVF is worse, because the black point is milked out, and then these odd anomalies happen in lower exposure areas, and the EVF just gets hit coming and going.
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  9. #49  
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    I'll try doing a few specific tests at some point this week on the Gemini, and send you some R3D Chris.

    Up to this point, I figured it was just my lack of post workflow knowledge, but also beginning to realize maybe this is all interconnected to some of the issues I see on the production side. Will be good to figure this out.
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  10. #50  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    That would not make sense. How would people work with Panavision material if it was not r3d´s like any onther r3d´s. And people have reverse engineered out the DXL look out of DIT software that had the DXL2 look built in and made separate lut out of it.
    As far as I know, the DXL2 camera metadata-unlocks the transforms. As I've not worked with the DXL2, I don't know how it works in post, but maybe someone could chime in on that. From what I remember, when it came out, people were always asking for that color science transform, but the answer back then was that it's metadata locked, so it needs R3Ds from the DXL2 to enable that color science.
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