Thread: Desaturated shadows?

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  1. #31  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    So my first question is:

    Are you looking more for this sort of thing:


    http://www.phfx.com/temp/reduser/phf...Saturation.jpg
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  2. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    So my first question is:

    Are you looking more for this sort of thing:



    http://www.phfx.com/temp/reduser/phf...Saturation.jpg
    From what I understand, what Christoffer noted is something that can't be seen on a still frame.

    When this video fades to black when iris is pulled there is a short moment where the image appear more black and white before it goes black...

    So when exposure is lowered the lumination of the image happens along one curve and saturation along another.

    Play this clip, looking at stills does not show it.

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  3. #33  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Not sure what I'm looking at here (Phil's Image)? The image is at an exposure level where there are no shadows really? Or they're not in the lowest range for the rolloff to be noticed. Check this video again and see when I pull the aperture down during the sofa shot and you can see how the colors behave without any rolloff



    It can be argued that it's youtube compression and such, but it's visible from shooting through post and the upload was a ProRes 444, so the youtube transcode is at the highest level for it.

    Did a new video both changing shutter and aperture and included stills with my Canon R. As of writing, it's not in 4K on YouTube yet, but I've included a R3D as well as an export of this.



    Aperture R3D
    https://we.tl/t-1PFwmUooqA

    Shutter R3D
    https://we.tl/t-19ELOifKKh

    Youtube file
    https://we.tl/t-gKQm5xo1Ob


    As far as I can see, I'm not sure if it makes things much better, but doing a, from scratch, RWG/LOG3G10 grade improves on the phenomena in the shadows. There's nothing scientific in any of these tests, but it might be concluded that the IPP2 transforms do not work well with Komodo. That grading the material directly from the LOG3G10 is in fact improving on the "grey splotchyness" in shadows.

    But this needs to be tested more. The general feeling here is that the IPP2 transforms elevate shadow areas too much so there isn't any roll-off capacity left to be made out of the lower DR range. Comparing to the Canon shots, they roll off better into shadows and end up in black, while the Komodo material, first has a very green tint to the lower range and second looks way off in its levels. Decreasing exposure doesn't really do much, it just packs things together and more stuff ends up in the "grey splotchyness". So the transforms seem to just "try" to roll-off into shadows but end up packing everything into a dull grey mess where everything is the same but nothing really dies off into black.

    Since I've not yet tested it in comparison to my DSMC2 Dragon, I'm not sure if this is just how IPP2 works, but maybe we've not seen it on Dragon material that much because of the higher noise. However, it might be that the standard IPP2 isn't really matching well with the internal color science of Komodo and might need a rework or tweak. Either through firmware or improving color science into IPP3.

    I'm gonna test ACES as well to see how it behaves there because that is a crucial area since so much gets graded through ACES now.
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  4. #34  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    But this needs to be tested more.
    From my perspective, observations, and even probing Graeme I would say IPP2's Output is working as intended. There's some characteristic stuff in terms how shadows and highlights are treated to avoid bad things that can happen high and low with high or near out of gamut material.

    In the specific shots presented you're trading some aspects off, but you can indeed put more saturation down there as it is in there. I've made unique transforms that hold more saturation well into the noise floor even and go against standard S-Curve or Contrast logic, but that I would say classifies more as a unique look.

    I'll download your additional test shots and look into them today or tomorrow. But I have yet to see anything that's truly unexpected or more accurately not intended.

    Graeme could likely pop in and chat about it. Fairly deep subject from a color science perspective and natural looking image perspective.
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  5. #35  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    From my perspective, observations, and even probing Graeme I would say IPP2's Output is working as intended. There's some characteristic stuff in terms how shadows and highlights are treated to avoid bad things that can happen high and low with high or near out of gamut material.

    In the specific shots presented you're trading some aspects off, but you can indeed put more saturation down there as it is in there. I've made unique transforms that hold more saturation well into the noise floor even and go against standard S-Curve or Contrast logic, but that I would say classifies more as a unique look.

    I'll download your additional test shots and look into them today or tomorrow. But I have yet to see anything that's truly unexpected or more accurately not intended.

    Graeme could likely pop in and chat about it. Fairly deep subject from a color science perspective and natural looking image perspective.
    I would gladly hear from Graeme on this since I really trust his judgment and knowledge. IPP2 isn't really a problem in itself. I think that if we think about how Komodo has monochromatic handling of DR at the highlight range, it might be so at the low range as well. So if IPP2 is treated just like any other Red camera, but the regular DSMC2 cameras don't have monochromatic stops, that could mean that the transformation of Komodo material isn't really doing it in the same way as with the other DSMC2s. So while they keep color and luminance working in tandem with each other throughout the transform from low to high, on Komodo we get some weird artifacts. This however seems odd as the physical DR range should expand beyond what the transform does, but I think that due to how Komodo handles itself, we might need some special treatment of the color science in order for IPP2 transforms to work as intended.

    So far, what really sticks out is the green tint of the low range, as well as the monochromatic nature of it while it cram everything at the lowest range into something just above pure black. My color instinct here is that I generally get better results when going from LOG3G10 as the starting point without any of the IPP2 transforms either internally or as output nodes. It might not even be about things getting monochromatic, but that the transforms make it impossible to roll off into pure black, instead it compresses everything into a grey "mush". So it doesn't matter if you push down the grade, as long as the transform is there it keeps everything compressed in the low range, and therefore it becomes a grey splotchfest.

    Something is clearly a bit off here that I think needs some eyes on it and maybe we need some tweaks to how Komodo gets handled through the IPP2 pipeline as Komodo seems to work a bit different than the regular DSMC2 linup.
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  6. #36  
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    just to expand this conversation a bit, from a viewing standpoint, i see the grey in Gemini footage when i pull below the “native” iso. So, iso800LL is pretty obvious, and exports in Davinci look weird, until i adjust the curve. i’ve not tried ACE’s yet.

    it does appear to be mostly a conversion issue, as playing with curves alters things. but i see it in other Ipp2 footage as well, just to a lesser degree. and i agree, i’ve not seen it in other camera footage before. would be interested in hearing more post workflows to more easily avoid this.

    So, if you talk to Graemme would be great to get some insight on IPP2 in general, because i’m not sure it is just the Komodo.
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  7. #37  
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    If it doesn't happen in the r3d/when bypassing IPP2, then it's a somewhat non-issue (IMO). It should also be recoverable after transform by using REDs IPP2 conversion LUTs (instead of native IPP2) as you could add a node pre-tonemap/rolloff and boost the shadows/shadow saturation to taste.

    This also strengthens Panavision's/Light Iron's/DXL's decision of bypassing IPP2 altogether and having their own LUT applied on an all encompassing RWG/L3G10 image.
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  8. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    If it doesn't happen in the r3d/when bypassing IPP2, then it's a somewhat non-issue (IMO). It should also be recoverable after transform by using REDs IPP2 conversion LUTs (instead of native IPP2) as you could add a node pre-tonemap/rolloff and boost the shadows/shadow saturation to taste.

    This also strengthens Panavision's/Light Iron's/DXL's decision of bypassing IPP2 altogether and having their own LUT applied on an all encompassing RWG/L3G10 image.
    Im not sure that's how Panavision does it. As I understand they only use a primer lut under IPP2.
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  9. #39  
    Senior Member Aaron Lochert's Avatar
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    Seems to be a processing/grade thing rather than a Komodo thing.

    Mushy


    Not mushy
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  10. #40  
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    what is your process?
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