Thread: The Queen’s Gambit - Steven Meizler FDTimes Interview

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  1. #31  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Just to underscore what Meizler actually said in the interview. He's comparing how the 35mm Zeiss Supreme draws versus the 18mm Super Speed. There is indeed difference in distortion across frame and relative formats comparatively between those two optics. He's not comparing the Supreme 18 and the Supreme 35, but rather a lens designed for S35 that has curvature characteristics that are indeed different from the FF35/LF/VV optic he's referring to.

    It seems to be one of the many things lost in discussing the merits and myths of different format sizes.

    The general concept of "wides holding better" on larger format typically comes from the "typical" variance between smaller format wide angle optics with a comparable FOV and the lens design itself.

    i.e. Just a practical use case example on Monstro 8K VV.

    Monstro 8K FF w/ Zeiss Supreme 50mm T1.5
    Monstro 5K FF w/ Zeiss Ultra Prime 32mm T1.9
    Mosntro 2.5K FF w/ Zeiss Super Speed 16mm T1.3

    All three of those lenses would net the approximate same field of view, but all three would create a different look due to the lens designs themselves.

    Those three formats account for VistaVision, Super 35mm, and Super 16mm.

    You can match the FOV just fine, then even stop down to match the depth of field and bokeh circles if the iris plays nicely with your desires. Though the reverse of that is sometimes trickier when looking for high quality shallow depth of field imaging which is also relevant if you are looking to get into the stopped down sweet spots and working wide open as well.

    In Manuel's test between the Mini and Alexa 65 referenced above there's a portion where he matches the depth of field via a 2 stop iris compensation. Mini @ T2.8, A65 @ T5.6. Take into account reversing that where if shooting T2.8 on the A65 he'd be looking to shoot around T1.4 on the Mini, doable and possible. Then consider what that might mean wide open through stopped down on some modern optics.

    So reversing that concept and taking into account something like shooting wide open with a Zeiss Supreme 50mm T1.5 on Monstro 8K VV and you wanting to match that DOF on S35 5K, you'd be looking at about a T0.8 lens approximately and a Super 16 lens so fast it would that it would be near impossible to make at T0.5.

    It's a different working logic really and one of the many reasons various formats are valid and sometimes inspire certain ways of working.
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  2. #32  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacek Zakowicz View Post
    It is just as hard to correct distortion on a 25mm lens across 44mm diagonal as it is to correct the distortion on 18mm lens across 30mm diagonal. or 10mm on 14mm diagonal.
    He was not talking about the depth of field in extreme cases razor thin DOF. Stay on topic please. It is rarely done for a reason- keeping the subject in focus is extremely difficult and it is really counter intuitive to general shooting rules..
    Distortions are more than just bending of straight lines. You get a massive increase in CA, different lens flaring, stronger vignetting. And the DOF aspect is still part of the discussion. You deem the entire subject of FF to be a massive marketing stunt and that anyone who buys into it is an idiot of the gimmick. Yet when we start talking about all aspects of FF sensor sizes you want us to stay on topic?

    DOF is a creative tool. People like Fincher regularly shoot wide open and I do too. That you have the subjective opinion that it shouldn't be done is not a foundation for an objective conclusion that FF sensors are irrelevant. You can probably match up shots above ultra-wide easily, but if you shoot wide open with a 35mm T1.3 lens, you cannot find a lens that is optically decent to match that look at a wider end. You need to find a 23-24mm lens at a massive T0.8 to be even able to match up. If your intention is to shoot wide open with quality lenses you cannot do that and get the same FOV with s35, because there are no lenses of pristine quality to match it.

    On top of that, down at the ultra-wide end, you run into the problem of shooting at anything around T0.8 to get the same FOV on s35 as a 24 T1.4 on FF. And at these FOV angles, shooting wide open gives you not only better low light behavior, but also gives you a certain look that is extremely hard to reproduce on s35 and lower. The wide FOV that still retains the DOF behavior of longer lenses is a unique look. Just shoot something on the ultra-wide Sigma 14mm T2.0 on FF and try getting anywhere close to that lens quality at the 9mm range and T1.4 for s35.

    Your dismissal of FF as just a marketing gimmick and calling people incompetent just echos hollow when you use personal preferences for imagery as the reasons why FF is irrelevant. My CN-E 24mm T1.4 wide open on FF cannot be easily reproduced at 16mm. The cost of it also goes through the roof as the only lenses really capable are the Master Primes at those ultra-wide angles. And it as a result limits any type of lens choices down to only just one or two brands and types.

    On top of that, just ignore the larger photosites on larger resolutions, I guess that's a marketing gimmick too?
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  3. #33  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Even though this is 65mm, the same thing applies. Try getting these kinds of shots with shallow DOF at s35. The requirements of the lenses go through the roof and the choices of lenses go down dramatically, especially trying to counter any distortions, CA, and other artifacts.







    And with Queen's Gambit. These are wide shots getting shallow DOF. The feeling of increased three-dimensionality is there because of the relation between shallow DOF and a wide FOV. The wider you go trying to retain a shallow DOF becomes increasingly harder on smaller sensors.





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  4. #34  
    Senior Member Aaron Green's Avatar
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    Interesting stuff. So if he were to use an 18mm supreme on a Helium at say T2, could he get the same shot as a Monstro 25mm supreme?
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  5. #35  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Green View Post
    Interesting stuff. So if he were to use an 18mm supreme on a Helium at say T2, could he get the same shot as a Monstro 25mm supreme?
    Technically yes, but you would need to shoot the 25mm on Monstro at T2 and the 18mm on Helium at T1.5. So you see, it gets a bit tricky if you want the wide-angle look of 25mm wide open at T1.5 on Monstro. How do you do a matching shot on Helium keeping the Supreme lineup of lenses at 18mm? You don't have an 18mm T0.8.
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  6. #36  
    Senior Member Jacek Zakowicz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post





    And with Queen's Gambit. These are wide shots getting shallow DOF. The feeling of increased three-dimensionality is there because of the relation between shallow DOF and a wide FOV. The wider you go trying to retain a shallow DOF becomes increasingly harder on smaller sensors.




    That face shot is a great example: The face is pretty distorted (big nose, etc.) and it has very little to do with the lens used while it does with general geometry rules. Thank you.
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  7. #37  
    Senior Member Jacek Zakowicz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    Technically yes, but you would need to shoot the 25mm on Monstro at T2 and the 18mm on Helium at T1.5. So you see, it gets a bit tricky if you want the wide-angle look of 25mm wide open at T1.5 on Monstro. How do you do a matching shot on Helium keeping the Supreme lineup of lenses at 18mm? You don't have an 18mm T0.8.
    Not necessarily. With helium smaller pixels the focus will fall off quicker. The rules you mentioned only apply to identical recording media. Smaller pixels change the DOF calculation....(which is a completely separate topic from the original claim)
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  8. #38  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacek Zakowicz View Post
    That face shot is a great example: The face is pretty distorted (big nose, etc.) and it has very little to do with the lens used while it does with general geometry rules. Thank you.
    Distorted in what way? It's a wide-angle lens and a wider lens on a smaller sensor will give the same FOV, but you cannot open the aperture up more if it's wide open and all lenses have the same T stop, meaning, you cannot get the same kind of shot with the same kind of DOF on a wider lens in the same series of lenses. If this is a 25mm signature prime at T1.5, you cannot get the same kind of shot with an 18mm because there is no 18mm signature prime at T0.8. You will not get the same identical image.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jacek Zakowicz View Post
    Not necessarily. With helium smaller pixels the focus will fall off quicker. The rules you mentioned only apply to identical recording media. smaller pixels change the DOF calculation....
    What are you talking about? Pixel size has nothing to do with any of this. You can apply the same method to 35mm film and there are no pixels there whatsoever. A 25mm on Monstro is the same as an 18mm on Helium. But you need to change the aperture to match them exactly. If the 25mm on Monstro is wide open you cannot match them up. So FF does matter in this case as you get a wide FOV but with a wide-open aperture that creates a certain DOF that you cannot get on the same series of lenses with s35 sensors. This means you need to use other lenses that can open an 18mm to F0.8 in order to match DOF.

    Let me know if you can find something that matches up to the Signature lenses at an F-stop of F0.8.
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  9. #39  
    Senior Member Aaron Green's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    Technically yes, but you would need to shoot the 25mm on Monstro at T2 and the 18mm on Helium at T1.5. So you see, it gets a bit tricky if you want the wide-angle look of 25mm wide open at T1.5 on Monstro. How do you do a matching shot on Helium keeping the Supreme lineup of lenses at 18mm? You don't have an 18mm T0.8.
    Cool. Makes sense.
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  10. #40  
    Senior Member Jacek Zakowicz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    Distorted in what way? It's a wide-angle lens and a wider lens on a smaller sensor will give the same FOV, but you cannot open the aperture up more if it's wide open and all lenses have the same T stop, meaning, you cannot get the same kind of shot with the same kind of DOF on a wider lens in the same series of lenses. If this is a 25mm signature prime at T1.5, you cannot get the same kind of shot with an 18mm because there is no 18mm signature prime at T0.8. You will not get the same identical image.




    What are you talking about? Pixel size has nothing to do with any of this. You can apply the same method to 35mm film and there are no pixels there whatsoever. A 25mm on Monstro is the same as an 18mm on Helium. But you need to change the aperture to match them exactly. If the 25mm on Monstro is wide open you cannot match them up. So FF does matter in this case as you get a wide FOV but with a wide-open aperture that creates a certain DOF that you cannot get on the same series of lenses with s35 sensors. This means you need to use other lenses that can open an 18mm to F0.8 in order to match DOF.

    Let me know if you can find something that matches up to the Signature lenses at an F-stop of F0.8.
    If you look up the definition of DOF it is calculated for a specific circle of confusion which for digital cameras translates into the pixel size. It has a direct effect on the DOF.(which again- is a separate topic from the "perspective compression" or whatever myth)
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