Thread: The Queen’s Gambit - Steven Meizler FDTimes Interview

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  1. #41  
    Senior Member Aaron Green's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacek Zakowicz View Post
    If you look up the definition of DOF it is calculated for a specific circle of confusion which for digital cameras translates into the pixel size. It has a direct effect on the DOF.(which again- is a separate topic from the "perspective compression" or whatever myth)
    What if you’re looking through an optical viewfinder?
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  2. #42  
    Senior Member Jacek Zakowicz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Green View Post
    What if you’re looking through an optical viewfinder?
    My guess is that would depend on the GG grain. Why does it matter?
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  3. #43  
    Senior Member Michael Hastings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    ...
    On top of that, just ignore the larger photosites on larger resolutions, I guess that's a marketing gimmick too?
    photo sites are the same on the Arri 65 as the Alexa they just combine three Alexa chips. But yes in other cameras larger photo sites can be had with the same resolution i.e Helium S35 8K vs Monstro 8K Monstro has bigger photo sites.
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  4. #44  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacek Zakowicz View Post
    If you look up the definition of DOF it is calculated for a specific circle of confusion which for digital cameras translates into the pixel size. It has a direct effect on the DOF.(which again- is a separate topic from the "perspective compression" or whatever myth)
    What? Circle of confusion has nothing to do with pixel sizes in this discussion. If we were to change up this discussion to use film terms instead, a 25mm Signature prime at T1.5 on 8 perf Vista Vision film gives you a look that you cannot get on 3 perf s35 with a signature prime 16,5mm, since you cannot go below T1.5 and match up the DOF you get at those apertures. You would need a signature prime at 16,5mm T0.8 to come close to the same DOF.

    I don't know what you are talking about, but it's not about the relation between FOV and DOF by changing sensor sizes, focal lengths and apertures. The same thing applies to film just as it applies to digital sensors. You are talking about something else, DOF in this is about the focal plane and bokeh levels between different sensor sizes and focal lengths. 18mm at T1.5 and 25mm T1.5 look different on the same sensor when matching up the subject, if the sensor size is different between the two you can match each lens to look the same, but the nature of the bokeh and focus will be different since you don't change aperture. In order to match this up you need to open the wider lens on the smaller sensor up, but if you are already wide open with these lenses you cannot open that wide lens up more to match the shots.
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  5. #45  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hastings View Post
    photo sites are the same on the Arri 65 as the Alexa they just combine three Alexa chips. But yes in other cameras larger photo sites can be had with the same resolution i.e Helium S35 8K vs Monstro 8K Monstro has bigger photo sites.
    I didn't mention any photosite differences between Arri cameras. I meant that an 8K Vista Vision sensor has larger photosites than a 6K 35mm sensor. And in Red's case, the 5K Gemini sensor has larger photosites than the Monstro 8K. If they were to do a Vista Vision sensor of the Gemini tech, that would mean lower resolution but larger photosites for a Vista Vision sensor size.
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  6. #46  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Green View Post
    What if you’re looking through an optical viewfinder?
    Exactly.

    If you have a Vista Vision optical viewfinder or a directors viewfinder with that translation. And you put on a Signature 25mm prime at T1.5.
    Then you have an s35mm optical viewfinder that you put a 16,5mm Signature prime on (doesn't exist in that focal length but whatever) at the same T1.5, it will not match the bokeh DOF up to the 25mm T1.5 on the Vista Vision.
    In order to match them up, you need to open up the 16,5 to give you the same bokeh and DOF that the 25mm T1.5 gives you on the Vista Vision.

    How do you do that if you cannot open the 16,5 up more than T1.5?
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  7. #47  
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    I think if someone were to design two lenses with precisely matching optical characteristics across formats, they would have to factor in the relative differences in sensor (or film-gates) sizes* of the cameras each lens would be used on, even if it were just a crop of the same digital sensor. Which would be quite a technical achievement, but probably not worth it if just matching perceived FOV and depth of field is good enough for most end-uses.

    *Edit - Wrote 'sizes' in a hurry, meant size in terms of pixel-pitch and other sensor-specific qualities.
    Last edited by Les Hillis; 03-20-2021 at 07:31 PM.
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  8. #48  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Les Hillis View Post
    I think if someone were to design two lenses with precisely matching optical characteristics across formats, they would have to factor in the relative differences in sensor (or film-gates) sizes* of the cameras each lens would be used on, even if it were just a crop of the same digital sensor. Which would be quite a technical achievement, but probably not worth it if just matching perceived FOV and depth of field is good enough for most end-uses.

    *Edit - Wrote 'sizes' in a hurry, meant size in terms of pixel-pitch and other sensor-specific qualities.
    But any lineup of lenses will still run into the problem of having a lowest f-stop. If someone wants to match up a 50mm FF to a 35mm s35, but the 50mm on FF has a wide-open aperture, you cannot match the 35mm, period. It's hard to get ultra-wide shots with a short focus plane. Personally, I absolutely love the medium format look in still photography. The ultra-wide images that still manages to hold a short focus plane (aka short DOF). Usually, short-focus planes are almost always seen in long lenses only, but this is where larger sensors or film comes into play. It opens up longer focal lengths wider while keeping that characteristic of a short focus plane. On smaller sensors this becomes increasingly harder to reach. If anyone think that the 65mm or even Vista Vision look of a 24mm T1.4 at wide open can be replicated on a 16mm sensor without any compromises to the optical quality, they are utterly delusional.
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  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacek Zakowicz View Post
    Again- there is no such a thing as long as the field of view and object distance are identical. It's been proven multiple times with identical frames from FF, S35, S16 and nobody could tell the difference
    Quote Originally Posted by Karim D. Ghantous View Post

    I am not an expert in optics either, but I know what I know and I know what I don't know. I also don't always know what I don't know. But as far as this issue is concerned, I do have the correct information. I don't need to prove it because smarter men than I have already done so, multiple, multiple times.
    Karim and Jacek: So are you saying you could get the above mentioned shot with an 18mm lens?

    https://vimeo.com/152514220
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  10. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    But any lineup of lenses will still run into the problem of having a lowest f-stop...
    Yeah, in reality there's always going to be a limited range of focal lengths that could be matched between formats due to that.

    I'm still curious which particular lenses currently match best using the criteria you've outlined above. As far as I know, no lenses have been designed to specifically do that (match FOV, Depth Of Field and 'character' across different formats).


    Edit - Forgot about the RED Pro Primes MkII. Oh hang on...
    Last edited by Les Hillis; 03-21-2021 at 10:14 AM.
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